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Third Time is Tradition - Out of Character Discussions

4/2/19 Lisa

Last Friday I said I would look for the chat log where that Suomi sarcophagus was opened. Here is the link to the chat log:

If you do a find on the page for: remove traps you should get to the part where the lid is lifted and we find what lies inside. Have fun!Two

4/3 TMO

No wonder that Tiera thing was hazy for me - I wasn't on that night. I've only read about it secondhand. Mind you, I doubt I would have known enough off the cuff to have Ilero react appropriately to the revelation. But yes, Ilero will strongly advise against opening that sarcophagus again. :)

Do we know what the goblet turned out to be?

4/3 Lisa

On the Home Base page we have it here: Gold goblet with figures on it - 600 gp

We could have Howard or anyone else with a Religion nwp try to do a check on it for religious significance.

-- TMO: That sounds like a very nice thing to do. It may just be grave goods, or it may be more significant. :)

4/7 Lisa

Idea for the griffon dilemma. Neith, Snee and Mara all know the spell Command. According to the griffon Wikipedia page, griffons cannot speak, but understand Common.

So, two priests cast a Command spell on each griffon telling it to Land! Command spells only work for one round so then, our bestest fighters, Kel and Tiberius make a to hit roll on the landed priestesses to free them from the recently landed griffons. They should then get as far away from them as they can.

From there, we can either fight them and hope they don't pick anyone else up, or Howard can cast glitterdust on them to blind them if our guys have backed up enough, or Johan can cast a hypnotic pattern on them (spell says creature so I think it applies) etc. Hypnosis means we run away since attacks break the spell, glitterdust would mean we either run away or fight with range weapons so we don't get blinded ourselves.

Anyway - this was the first plan that came into my head and thought I would share.

4/7 Carissa

Not sure of ideas, but if Shi ends up being able to use her spells, the two I'm considering are: any of her wind spells (she has a few to buffer her fall) and/or Animal Friendship. What?? She likes animal friends!

But something does tell me that now that I've shared my idea, for some odd (DM-related) reason, it won't work I'm not paranoid!

Also might want Ilero's hand ready to catch someone if needed. And people under to catch if needed. Just a little worried about falling is all...

(Do griffons use tutors? Is this a Kenna situation? Or are they just going to be mealy snacks??)

4/7 Lisa

Wind buffer sounds good, but unless you can make friends with it, how do you make it drop you? And can Mara do the same thing?

I was looking at animal things but if a creature is in the monster manual is it an animal or a monster? I'm not sure and am really asking.

TMO/Bob could answer this best, but if I recall correctly, the Hand of Reaching has a weight limit, I don't know if it can carry 100 lbs of anything.

Lol to Kenna capture reference! I cannot imagine what griffons want with people. I don't think they eat people, do they???

4/7 Carissa

Poke it with a dagger? Er, arrow? But good point. I guess if she has a move, she should first work on trying to befriend/bargin with it since that's one move versus poke then drop being likely two (unless someone hits it and makes it drop her). I did check. Mara has wind column which she can use on herself, and also wind servant to use however she wishes.

No clue. I think I remember asking if griffons counted as animals back when they attacked the boat, but Shi was asleep so she was upset to miss trying to speak to them (befriend them...). Will need to find that here in a minute.

See? It was half joke and half honest question! What do griffons want with people??

Edit: Here is the chat from our last Griffon fight (Main.20180323c). I forgot. Shi missed it because she was below ship grieving poor Tinu :(

I'll have to read through it better later, but Neith did do the Command Spell successfully, so your idea to use it again is a good idea! Also Jilly had a chance to grab Indigo before he was taken away. While Shi and Mara were too surprised to act, did anyone maybe by chance roll well enough to react fast enough to grab a leg or something...?

Edit 2: There are animals in the monster manual, if I recall, too, so maybe they're animals? Or maybe I just really want a griffon friend. I mean, if it broke its leg, at least it's still able to be useful!

4/8 TMO

The Hand of Reaching uses the strength of the wearer. Given Ilero has, at best, a 9 strength, don't count on him to catch anybody. His only contribution would be as an attack that stands a chance of knocking the griffon out. A *slim* chance. And that just puts them both into freefall...

4/8 Lisa

Thanks TMO!

I am curious about the animal/monster thing because we have potions of Animal Control too, but when I looked them up, the catch with them was a d20 roll to see what kind of animal you could control. Then I got into that whole inner debate on whether a griffon counts as an aviary animal if it is even an animal, and should we be rolling d20s before we are in a griffon chasing emergency or is that just the "fun" of the stupid potion? Then I thought, why don't we think about something else? :-) But if we are lugging around 2 potions of animal control it would be nice to know when we should be rolling the d20 on them Ö BOB?

The thing is Carissa, is that I thought you were going to be in late on Friday and so we would have to save Shi and Mara without you. Not the case?

4-8 BOB

1 - Griffons are monsters not animals. Animals are things in our real world, even if in extra large (or small) sizes. Things like Griffons or Hippogriffs are monsters. However that does not mean they are not affected as noted earlier here with the command spell. Those sorts of things cover creatures and so that includes animals, monsters, most everything that is low or animal intelligence. Then you get to the Humanoid and other complications along with the Undead.

In this current encounter to focus on yes any spell that affects creatures will work.

2 - Potion of animal control is random yes. Each potion is for a specific type of animal. You did Identify on the first one right? This is one of those mutlip level items, not sure if we did that on that one for you. I will allow that Branwyn would have done that over this much time and casts again to determine which type of animal is controled for each potion. No they will not be the same automatically just because you copied it using the bowl. If you made them with a receipe then yes they would be identical.

3 - Yes to TMO's comments about Strength and using the Hand.

4 - I am ruling that because neither of the hits was a full grapple that your arms and legs are free to use. That will limit some spells with a somatic component but you can easily use verbal. Material only if you have something super readily available like the holy symbol.

5 - The rest of the group does not get to make an immediate attack because it was a swooping attack. Basicly plunging down out of the sun to snatch and fly up. If either of them had missed their attack they would have been on the ground for a round of reaction before they could leave. Indigo has flown on griffon back before but is not here to tell you what that experience is like.

For Ryan and to remind others. This is a full story arc type adventure. Meaning yes the encounters are 'random' when they happen but I do have a plan for why they happen. Such as finding the badger that is guarding the outskirts of the gnome mining village. Random if you find him before stumbling into the village but not random that it is a placed there. Unlike so many of your recent traveling random encounters where you can come across just about anything in the swamps, etc.

4/8 Carissa

Well that is disappointing. I thought you could get griffon mounts, and since they're half of two real animals....oh well...

So yes to Lisa, I have no clue if I'll be late or not, but it's possible. Still plan as if I won't be there, but that said, since Shi is one in danger, I give you permission to play her if needed/necessary - even if it's just to cast something to soften her fall, please and thank you. You have a good grasp of spells and can decide if one is needed. I guess I can't ask for my original plan be played out since they aren't animals...

I'll try to at least be reachable from Discord, if nothing else, and if lucky, I'll be on, but again, I don't know. Sigh. It's bad enough being late, worse when your character is one of the ones in danger :P

4-08 BOB

You can get griffon mounts, the highest ranking order in Terraguard is the Royal Order of the Griffon. And Imari had a Hippogriff mount. More so than dragons.

Also Carissa cannot just give over control of her PC to another player. Sorry. If she can communicate things to me I can do them but it is always problematic.

4/9 Carissa

Well damn. I thought we did allow that. Okay then direct communication to BOB: please don't kill Shi. Thanks! :D

So now I have a question that gets into the nitty gritty of descriptions and spells to try to find a loophole for griffons (also egg snatching sounds harder and mounts expensive). When looking at her animals spells, some of them do give examples of animals or specifics. For example, Calm Animal works on "normal" animals, but also includes things like hellhounds and owlbears as being able to be calmed. Speak To Animals specifically says it works on "non-fantastical" animals. Animal Friendship does not specify beyond intelligence level. Hold Animal and Animal Summoning also have "fantastical animal" as a category (in which the first can be used on them but not the second). So does this category exist and would a griffon be a "fantastical animal" instead or would just an owlbear be in such a category?

There are, of course, other reasons Animal Friendship may not work (including bad die roll and/or because DM says so), but the lawyer in me would like some clarification, and maybe hope, please and thank you :)

Also so it's good to know with her other spells in the future (if she has one) since she often uses her animal spells when possible.

Edit: Although even if she could befriend it, she couldn't speak to it. Hmmm....
Edit 2: Partly why this came up is because I do know Locate Animal can be used (with a low low chance of it working) to find a unicorn so had to check into griffons :)

4/10 Lisa

I would love to hear other ideas! What I am worried about is how little time we have on this in-game. At the end of last week as the griffon grabbed Shi:

[Master] Griffon #3 moved 50'06".
When BOB says "Action!" this Friday, we don't have a lot of room for experimentation. If two PCs get away, the trip to Skull Church turns into wandering in the direction the griffons flew looking for them since we don't have the divination tools we had when Kenna was abducted. If we get around the griffon/animal thing, do we have enough characters with the spells to make an animal manipulation kind of a rescue work for both Mara and Shi?

I've been running this in the back of my head last Friday and unless someone comes up with something better, I'm still for getting the griffons to land with a command spell - 2 spells from 2 of the 3 priests we have that know Command. Then if John is able to log in, we have 3 serious fighters with around 17/18 STR that have a really good shot of grabbing Mara and Shi away from them. And then we have 2 mages that have spells that have a good shot of stopping them or at least slowing them down greatly so we can get away. It's a group effort and everyone would need to be on board. And it is something we could do to save Shi without Carissa having to blow off her family to save her character! :D

btw - I had no idea there was any way you could "calm" a hellhound. That would have saved a lot of trouble!

4-10-19 Michael

I do think that Command is a vastly underrated spell. I don't see it used that much, but every time I've used it it's worked. However, I do believe they are still entitled to magic saves, which makes it a little tricky. Not sure how many of us have Command. Also, I wanted to point out that we can use Nap to great effect depending on when it is needed, however, while I still need to get home and check the drawbacks of the spell, it does give refreshments on spells, which for this scenario is somewhat critical. The fact bob posted on the main page that this will be an important resource that will have to be managed, informs me that there will be little sympathy/leniency if we cast spells like they are going out of style. Can someone help me find the pack page for this particular trip? I can't find anything other then the general party pack page. So, in short, I think Command would be a good start Lisa. I'm still going to check through Neiths other spells, but short of blasting the Griffons out of the sky (which you know, wouldn't be conducive to the PC heath :) ), I'm not sure what else we can do.

- Michael

4/11 Lisa

Thanks for posting Michael! I was in Klooge over the weekend and it says that Command victims only get a save with 13 INT or higher so unless griffons are way smarter than Indigo they have to do as they are told. And yes, if we run out of spells we fight with weapons until we can get some sleep. Howard just learned a 10' ft radius invisibility spell so the casters can sleep huddled in an invisible mass to get a full night's sleep (as long as no one accidentally trips over them) while the fighters take the watches.

The Party Pack is here:

Everything we have at home is here:

4/10 Carissa

Two things:

  1. . Not sure how good his throw is, but Kel might be able to lasso (unless he's going to be possible air bag).
  2. . We could always try to tempt the griffons with something more delectable than boney elf and um, Mara (resisting bad joke...). Of course, I'd hate to sacrifice the very horse we just saved but.... possible back up if things go wrong and we need to try to lure one (or both) back to the group.

P.S. Yeah, wish I'd read that spell in more detail earlier! Too bad it doesn't sound like it's possible to speak to them (maybe probably) or we could get some answers... unless they speak an actual language. Hmm... keeping this in mind closer to when we end up in Hell...

4/10 Lisa

If we make it to the farmhouse, this is the info for the back way into the Skull Church cavern system. Hoffman and Ilero should know this and it will save us some time if we don't want to go in the front door.

Hoffman found a trap door in the Barn with a ladder down that opens into a long room with a set of pillars running down near each wall with no visible doors. We all try but it is Jennevive who finds a secret door.

4/13 John

It certainly seems like Carissa is in the right frame of mind considering. She can separate what her character wants from what she wants and has options to find the best mix for them both. But I also have a different perspective in that I have had a lot of characters I have loved to play. I love the idea of Carissa allowing her character to be brought back against her character's will and seeing how that might change her or her relationships. I could see Shi coming back but leaving the Mist for an extended period as long as we don't lose Carissa from the game. I think if Carissa really thought about being Beastmaster, we may never see Shi again. (A character that attracts animal companions that can increase in level) Let's hope that is only the next henchperson for Shi /Carissa. I just hope Carissa still finds the joy of the game.

As for my characters, I had sent Hoffman alone to the initial meeting while we straighten out the time line and finish with Miranda and Foto. As we are unexpectedly back, I would like to make sure where Foto is, if he is no longer a Brother and have him join us on the next trip to Head Stone Manner (I want to change the name from Skull church eventually). I also want to say there is plenty of room at Traveler's Way

4/13 Carissa

I gave it a day, I read through the chats, and I will be completely honest: I am still beyond livid about what happened on Friday.

Absolutely none of that was okay. None of it. A decision that kills off someone's character should never be made without their input. Shi's death was not an accident. If a griffon ate her, that's fine, it's how that goes, but to use a spell you knew would kill her without me having absolutely any voice in it at all is not okay by any means. Nor do I appreciate how casually it was handle once she was dead as if it wasn't a big deal, that there was no reason to feel sorry for what happened. That was incredibly disrespectful. To be honest, reading the chat today only rekindled my anger.

Yes, I had obligations, but I was doing my best to be present, and by the actions Shi took, at my word, you knew I was present to a degree. It would have taken at most five minutes to have someone run that plan by me and for me to have a chance to respond. No one should ever assume a character wants to return. No one should be surprised that Shi doesn't want to return. Shi has brought that up multiple times for a reason which seems like it was a waste of time now. And if she does return? My character and I will be in agreement that her death was a murder. It does not matter if it was in good faith or not. She was murdered, and it could have been prevented.

There were plenty of hints that the griffon wasn't going to immediately eat her. Shi was not a helpless damsel in distress. I was prepared for the possibility of her disappearing if someone had just taken the time to ask my opinion and plan. There are always more options beyond killing a character, and if you are to kill them, you do not make that decision for the player no more than you make the decision to bring them back without that player's input.

I do not know what my plans are for Shi or for myself at this moment. I am angry, and I have every right to feel how I want about what happened. I cannot brush this aside and pretend that everything is okay, and that I will simply get over this without at minimal some discourse because this cannot happen again, and this cannot be something to pretend is okay.

For now, I'm going to post this, and then try to put it out of my mind for the next few days. I want to enjoy the rest of my visit with my family without this hanging over me. Maybe eventually the anger will dim enough for me to grieve Shi's death, but that is not happening anytime soon.

4/13 TMO

I've done a little bit of reading the chat log, and found something that may be informative. Or maybe not. When we were trying to come up with a way to stop the griffon, a lightning bolt was mentioned, which does {Level}d8 (erroneously called 6d8 in the chat, when Neith is now level 7). The average damage for 6d8 is 27, while Shi had 29 hp remaining (X-50= -21, X=29). The average damage for even 7d8 is 31.5. Shi would have been at -3hp, easily savable (not counting any fall damage).

However, the actual Priest spell isn't Lightning Bolt, it's Call Lightning, which does 2d8+{Level}d8 damage, or 9d8. Not 6d8, which everyone thought we were casting, with a max damage of 48, but half-again as much, with a max of 72. The average damage for 9d8 is 40.5, which is more than 10 over her hp total. Michael actually rolled a goodly amount over average damage, because the dice hated us last night. Seriously, only one roll the entire night actually went in our favor: the one Command spell Mara was able to make stick against her griffon. No, I take it back, two rolls: the griffon failed it's save vs the lightning too. The worst case scenario would have had Shi die, and the griffon live, flying away with her body. (As an additional note, the 50 damage done is more than is even possible from 6d8 - that was what tipped me off to this whole thing in the first place)

Shi and the griffon both had similar save chances (12 and 13), so 60% chance to save and take half damage. Half damage I believe would have forced the griffon to land, and both would have survived even half damage of 9d8. Was it a gamble? Yes. Did we realize just how big of a gamble it was? No. Would we still have done it if we had known? I don't know the answer to that. I believe I was thinking using the Rod was no big deal at the time, as a player. I supported Michael's casting, based on our options at the time. There was no way I could see of us being able to track or find her once the griffon was out of sight. If we had had the option, we might have tried it when the green dragon took Kenna.

Does this fix anything about the situation? I doubt it. We made an error in judgment. I was part of that call, feeling it was the best option we had at the time. It was wrong, but it was the decision we went with. Michael asked multiple times if we were sure about it, and we chose to go with it.

4/15 Lisa

So many things went wrong on Friday, I barely know where to begin. Carissa, I would in no way try to discount your right to be angry about this. I understand and I am sorry that this happened. It is really easy to look backwards and think more clearly of what should have been done than it was to be there at the time. I donít think anyone actively thought of killing Shi as the solution. I believed we thought we were going to lose her with our other available options and we needed to try anything we could to prevent that. And the Rod of Resurrection was the failsafe in case again we failed. Thatís why we were talking about it. We didnít want to try that risky of a maneuver if we didnít have a way to ďfixĒ it.

Every single dice roll went against us the first time. Until the lightning spell, every roll for Shiís griffon failed. Kelís hits were doing minimal damage and the griffon was about to gain even more yardage, reducing Kelís chances of hitting and making it more difficult for any other character to be in range to do anything or for us to catch up.

My head at the time was basically in the same place as TMOís. I trusted that when the spell was cast that we were looking at a 6d8 roll with a save. It wasnít assured destruction of your character. Conversely, I thought, if the griffon drops a PC, you get around 10d6 damage with no save and depending on when it did it, no chance to cast to counteract it that round. Yes, we knew there was a possibility that it wouldnít work, but we didnít know the exact roll until it was cast, and no one in game (Mario, Ryan, TMO, John, or me) told Michael to stop or to contact you, so this was an everyone problem.

If any of our rolls had been working, there is no way we would have tried anything like what we did. I can only speak for myself, but I was thinking that the griffon was moving too fast and too far for any of us to be able to save Shi at that point. Mara could keep casting Command, but Neith was out of range after the first failed.

My biggest fear during that combat was that at the end of it all, we would have to tell you that we failed and the only recourse was a trip to look for Shiís body. If we could avoid that Ė even if worst case that it meant bringing Shi back with a resurrection, I thought it would have been better than watching helplessly as the griffon took her away.

If you had information that the griffon had plans other than killing the PCs, I really, really wish you would have posted that during the week that we were planning. Because I, for one, did not see any indication from what we knew that there was anything other than death awaiting.

The only place I have seen trained griffons was in Terraguard. The monster manual entry Ė which I read before hand Ė said that griffons basically cannot be trained unless done so from an early age and is quite the intensive process. To my mind, the odds of this suddenly happening here was low. They want to eat horses and ours were attached to the wagon so they picked up a person each. This was how I saw it, and that Shi and Mara were lunch.

I think we thought we were doing the best we could do at that moment given everything that had gone wrong up to that point. I agree with you that we were wrong not to have contacted you and that not one person in game that night thought of it or said anything. In hindsight, of course I wish I would have spoken up against using the spell Ė or at least stopped combat and taken the time to look up the spell myself and made a judgment on it. In hindsight, I wish more players would have said something either yes or no rather than remaining silent. I wish for a lot of things. But right now at this moment, I can only say that I am very sorry that it happened the way it did regardless of our intentions.

I completely agree with you Carissa, that I donít want this to happen again. You are so angry and that is what I am worried about the most. I do think I can speak for everyone in that we all do love you and love having you play with us every Friday night. Your humor, creativity and kindness are truly a much needed and appreciated bright spot that you bring each week. I donít want to lose you over this mistake that we made in a combat session and really hope we can work through this.

For the near and distant future Ė

I know we canít replay the combat. I mentioned to Bob, though, if it would be agreeable to everyone and would fix this with Carissa, that we take the spell back. The spell doesnít happen and the griffon flies away. Shi would be on her own, the group would be pulling itself together since we were still in process of saving Mara at the same time and we could go from there. I donít know if that would save Shi, but if it would alleviate some anger, I am good with it as a one time Ė never to replay any session events ever again sort of thing.

I didnít like the responsibility for your character without you being in. I didnít like hearing that Bob was texting you and we were sitting around waiting to see if you got the message, if you were in a position to respond, how long should we wait, etc. Iím not sure what the solution is, but half in, half out didnít seem to be working since I doubt you were getting all the details to make decisions either. I was posting brush strokes on Discord after the things happened because I was being present in Klooge in combat and didnít want to not be aware of what was happening on the map and in the present. So Discord comments were brief after facts and not planning sessions. I also doubt you could get the full picture from a text message. So I donít know if this is a good idea for future times.

So Ö then I went to look and see if my assumptions were crazy. I already talked about the monster manual so no, I donít think I was crazy thinking Shi and Mara were bird food.

How about range? Mage spells and most of Neithís spells were out of range as soon as the griffon left the first time. Griffon goes 300 ft/round and what ever altitude adjustments it adds to the mix. Kel was the only PC with a ranged weapon and could only run as far as he could and still get his two shots in. Kel pulled out his short bow and the website shows this as the range and penalties. I didnít have these specific numbers in my head, but I do know you canít just shoot arrows at any distance without penalties. The aiming bonus cancels the called shot penalty, but distance rules still apply. At the end of Kelís last turn, the griffon still needed to take over 20 hp of damage to get to 50% and had not taken its next flight move yet.

Weapon Short bow \\ Minimum 10 ft
Short 150
Medium (-2) 300
Long (-5) 450
Extreme (-10) 600

Spells? Yes, I was crazy and here I am going to go on one of my familiar and annoying rants. If anyone is going to play a caster, you HAVE to know your spells. If people donít want the work it takes to do that, then play a fighter. Please. Carissa, you just DMíd and found out how much you have to juggle to keep the game going. For everyone who has not DMíd before, Bob is counting on us to know our spells and answer questions if he asks, but he is not looking all our spells up every time we cast one. And I shouldnít have to look up priest spells! For last Friday.

First Ė Bob already ruled on the site that griffons werenít animals. He wasnít going to let animal spells or potions work so casting an animal spell was a completely wasted turn on a crucial round.

Second Ė There was confusion on the name and dice roll of the lightning spell that was up for discussion. The numbers we thought we were dealing with and the numbers we got after casting were very different. AND Ė if I would have taken the time to look the spell up, I would have fought that the spell could even be cast in the first place. Having clouds in the sky is NOT good enough to cast this spell.

''When a call lightning spell is cast, there must be a storm of some sort in the area--a rain shower, clouds and wind, hot and cloudy conditions, or even a tornado (including a whirlwind formed by a djinn or air elemental of 7 Hit Dice or more).

Because it requires a storm overhead, this spell can only be used outdoors. It does not function underground or under water.

I know when times are desperate, bending the rules of magic is tempting. How much can we get away with? But guys - we canít be doing this stuff!! I know it takes time. And I know we all have things we have to do outside of D&D. I do too. But because I run casters, I did take 20 minutes to log in to Klooge last week and make sure I knew my new spells. I went through the Party Pack again, etc. I did even look at some priest spells Ė but I canít memorize all the spells.

Casters have to take responsibility for their spells. Everyone has questions, but everyone should be asking from a basis of knowledge of your spell. Which is why we had the animal questions on the site last week. Which is why I asked if I could cast glitterdust in the air. I knew the range, duration and effect. I just needed to know if I could use altitude. Yes or no and then decide. Sorry for the caster rant, but things like the 2 mistakes above could have made a big difference and might have saved a lot of hurt feelings from last week.

4/15 TMO

I have a suggestion for future sessions - We don't normally end sessions with cliffhangers like we did this last time. And we knew in advance that Carissa was going to be late. In hindsight, I think probably what we should have done was cut to another group or sub-group of characters until she had a chance to join us. If someone just doesn't show up we can't really abort everything last second with no time for Bob to plan, but we had fair warning in this case.

4-15 BOB

Two take aways for me from this first part of the conversation. Yes to going back to total isolation when a player is not logged in. They are One Round Behind and are not availble for anything. No healing, advice, etc. Also yes to TMO's comment on cliffhangers. There was the opportunity to do other roleplay back at the Manor. I did not do that this time because it would have excluded Ryan from play because Carissa was not in. That can be remedied in the near future by having someone in that situation play someone from Ilero's Guild for that interaction.

This is only the second character death when the player was not available in the 25+ years. Both times it was an area of effect spell that did tremendous damage that there was no logical way to exclude the character in question. As an aside anytime a character/creature takes 50 or more points of damage from an attack there is a saving throw versus death for potentially dying of massive damage even if the damage total is not enough to kill the character. So no matter who the griffon was carrying away there was a definate chance at death.

4/15 John

I am not sure if changes are still available. My thought was to change as little as possible due to the misunderstanding, and it was as the proposed action was not accurate. I would not change what was done as it were up too many issues going forward but with the one round behind, I was the previous week, I would just switch places my character with hers. And I am not saying this just becaus e he might survive, there would have been more damage from the fall and a save vs. death with for the amount of damage. Hoffman dying keeps the story heavily the same and keeps the one round behind in tact

4/15 Carissa

Thank you all for your thoughts so far. I return to NY late tomorrow (Stupid fever. Maybe not returning until Thursday). I'm reading these and ruminating on them, but I will wait on a proper response until that time. Please keep adding anything else in the meantime. It does help.

(Well damn if I end up staying home sick I might reply sooner. This sucks).

4/16 Lisa

Oh no, Carissa! Hope you get better soon!

After I posted yesterday I realized that I forgot to say something. I didnít post last week in chat or Discord all the thoughts that were in my head and so when I looked at the chat again, it did indeed look like I wasnít concerned about Shiís death or your feelings. And that was disrespectful of me. Iím not going to try to make excuses. I wasn't thinking and that was dumb. I am sorry and I will work on being more mindful.

4/16 Mario

I have thought a while on what happened on Friday, and reading all the posts. There is a lot I agree with, and those items have been addressed: TMO and Bob with playing a scene when one of the main PCs in the scene didn't have the player present; Lisa's "Know Your Spells" rant ( :0D ); no need to reassert why I agree with these.

I do strongly disagree with the statement that we all share culpability for the singular action of one PC. If we tell someone how to play their character, or what action that PC should take, then who is really playing? Just because no one responded to Michael's question of whether to cast that spell or not does not justify its casting, knowing fully what the repercussions are. I purposely declined to respond. I do not run that character. In game terms, Kel would not have had a chance to respond to Neith's question. We all play on Friday for our own reasons. I play for the escape, the fantasy, and the adventure that my characters are part of. Knowing the actions of my PCs influence the outcome is most of the fun. But I, ME, am deciding what that input is. Sometimes it's right, and sometimes it's not. But if I ask others what my every move should be, well, that wouldn't be ME playing. We are each ultimately in control of our own character's actions.

I will be the first to address what is truly the source of my anger about Friday. This may or may not be how you all feel, and that's totally cool with me. Choose to agree or not, your call. This is not a rally cry, simply my opinion and feelings. If this makes me the bad guy, then ĎChe sera seraí:

Michael's attitude about the entire situation is deplorable. First you kill off a PC with a spell you knew fully well could, or would, potentially kill the character; then be totally flippant about the whole situation; then claim no one stopped you, so itís ok; then be super mad that you donít have the immediate answer as to whether to resuscitate them; then be angry that the player doesnít want to log in. Are you serious??

[Neith of Inholt (mharm-15549)] Normally I would be upset, but I asked multiple times and felt we had options. So. I don't even feel bad this time. Sorry guys. If she's perma dead, well, I'll live with it, ...
[Neith of Inholt (mharm-15549)] (I think for future if this is going to be the norm for character deaths, everyone should put up a dman do not resuscitate on the website. Just read the discord. What the hell.
[Neith of Inholt (mharm-15549)] I'm actually kind of pi9ssed right now and it does take a bit to get me there
[Neith of Inholt (mharm-15549)] Is she seriously not going to pop in? And in all honesty if this is truly whatís the deal with characters and death? Yeah. You need to have a DNR on the website. Thatís my requirement for now on
[Neith of Inholt (mharm-15549)] Che sera sera

I sincerely look forward to playing every Friday, the camaraderie we share, adding to this fantasy world, and of course advancing both my PCs. I do consider it a privilege to be allowed to be part of this fantastic group. I look forward to many more enjoyable evenings with you all. That is all.

04/16/2019 - Michael

Sigh, First off, it was no ones fault but mine. Yes, I knew there was a chance that there would be a shit ton of damage and that really upset me that it fully killed Shi. I accept full responsibility for my (neith's actions). I thought there was a pretty damn solid chance it would be alright because to be honest I thought it would work out.

So let's have it plain and simple. Carissa, I don't have your phone number or I would have just called, but I sincerely and heartfully apologize for casting that spell. Worse, I was so angry when it actually DID kill Shi, that I responded in that way.

So. I sincerely apologize. That was crude and rude of me, and trust me, I feel more guilty and like shit then you could possibly imagine.

For a disclaimer now:

I also need to be honest with everyone here. Please note, I accept full responsiblity for my actions but It is incredibly important that this is known. I am not trying to plead for understanding etc etc.

I need people to help me. From the very beginning, my characters have not wanted a single managerial task when Branyn could give them direction because that is not how my players have ever played. Again, I am not asking for sympathy, I need you to know where I am coming from and how that affects my play. And, I ask you to consider my situation as I will always consider yours. I know that everyone's situtation is different, but I need to you understand that for the last three and a half years I have worked two full time jobs in addition to full time school. I have dedicated every single Friday evening I possibly can to be at the game because lets be honest the more the merrier right? Its fun and I enjoyed making friends. That seems to have now slipped my grasp and It appears I've rightfully lost a couple. I want you all to know that quite frankly, I don't read the chats because I don't have time. If there was someone who made it very well known that they wanted a DRN? I'm the first to say i'm usually so tired I don't remember stuff like that. I also simply don't have the energy anymore to roleplay stuff like this when Bob is having to role saves for players.

Carissa, I truly apologize. Had I known you were on the Discord I would have asked right that second.

But, this last Friday has clearly shown that quite frankly I don't have the time to properly "play the game" anymore and results in messes so large that they don't affect my characters alone. Quite frankly I don't want anything more doing that kind of damage. I like you guys too much for people to begin saying my behavior is deplorable or that I should have consulted with them. Because yes. It was, and I should have. So i'm done with that.

If you'll kindly allow me to keep up with you guys on the site and on the Discord I'd love to do that. But, this isn't properly playing the game anymore, and I no longer have the proper amount of energy or time to give the game what it and all of you deserve.

For one final time of this little post, Carissa I am sorry. I hope that the next time everyone else will always double check if there is ever a question on such a momentous decision.

  • Post Script, Bob, let Carissa kill of Neith in some sort of fun way. That'll make the story more interesting and probably help make things right for Shi and all that. It's fair enough I suppose.
    • Post Script...Uh. Script - Also Carissa, I know you don't want Shi back, but Bob is always Neutral Neutral. You can always come back. Remember, this is a game and what your character feels may not always be what you feel. Shi is a great asset to the Dragonslayers and I have no doubt whatsoever that they will literally go to hell and back to rip your soul back from the Underworld along with all your relatives from the Underworld too if that's what it takes so that they can have you back. It's a Game. Role Play it out, It will always work out no matter what happens. With your storytelling capabilities surely everyone can make this something truly epic for cyring out loud. It Will Work Out. I promise. Bob has never fully screwed us over before and I doubt he'll start now.

4/16: TMO

Nope. Nuh-uh. Not allowed.

Either of you, both of you: quit only if you're not enjoying the game anymore, or you positively do not have the time on a regular basis. I refuse to accept any other reasons for leaving. A temporary break is barely acceptable. Permanent is not. Both of you, from everything I can tell, are very much enjoying yourselves, and this incident might be very upsetting and frustrating, but it should not be the last memory you have of this campaign.

If you wish to take a temporary leave of absence, you can file the paperwork stating what date you will return on. No more than 3 weeks will be approved.

4/16 Mario

Michael - I do apologize for using the word 'deplorable' to describe your attitude. That word was not used to describe you as a person. it was used towards this particular incident, and not you as a whole. In rerospect, I should have chosen another word. I sincerely apologize.

None of my diatribe was meant to get you to quit. I certainly do not want that. I was expressing my opinion. We all contribute to the game and website what we can, no one is expected to contribute more that they want or or are able to. Some create cities and personas, while others just want to roll the dice. Neither is right or wrong. Just different.

I certainly hope you reconsider your decision, as I know I would miss you.

4/16 Carissa

Michael, I will be completely honest here: while there were many compounding issues (which were addressed and I will respond to in a minute), I have realized this really and truly was the crux of my anger. Again, I was prepared for Shi to die by other means. I was not prepared for her to be killed by someone else or for it to be handled in such a manner. That said, don't discount how much acknowledging this directly and apologizing for it does mean to me. I've realize it was what I was waiting to hear (read), and I appreciate and accept the apology.

All of this discussion has been therapeutic and helpful, truly. We all play this game differently, and that's okay, but we do need to remain aware of others' play style, how our actions might affect theirs, and how we don't all approach the game in the same manner. As Lisa mentioned earlier, the Rod of Resurrection was viewed as a failsafe. That has not been my view, and I don't think we should ever plan with the thought of death being an option simply because we have a means to resurrect, but until now, when has this been something we realized needed to be discussed?

I do agree with the earlier rant about knowing our spells. We really do need to be fully aware of what they are and what possible repercussions for using them are. This is our job to know them, not someone else. If you are uncertain, it's better to not use them at all. I can only speak for myself, but if you didn't know you had a spell or didn't use it because you didn't know what it would do, I'm not going to be upset by that, but if, like here, it was used without fully understanding it, well, we see what came of that.

In regards to my spell choices at the time, as I hadn't heard a response on the possible loophole mentioned earlier, and it was implied there was only one way to find out, I did use an animal spell. If I had been in the game, seen how bad things were going, would I have wasted a spell on simple curiosity? Probably not. I was torn between that and a wind spell to cushion her fall, but this is also looking in hindsight so who knows? It was also incredibly difficult to make well thought out decisions at the time as I was preoccupied with real life interactions and without fully knowing what was going on. So no, half in, half out very much did not work out. I think we're all in agreement of not doing that again and simply not involving that player's character if it happens again.

And yes, I do wish I'd had taken two minutes to post ideas for if the griffon managed to take Shi away, but it wasn't until Friday morning I realized we hadn't addressed it. There was Fete. There were Animal Summoning Spells. There were options, but there was no way for you all to know them, and it isn't your job to keep track of my character and her spells (as mentioned earlier).

So here are my thoughts so far on where to go from here: while Lisa's offer and John's offer are tempting, I don't know if I could, in good conscious, accept them (or if they're actually viable). Our actions do have consequences, and I'm leaning towards needing to accept the unfortunate results of this fact of life (although, seriously, John's offer is so very tempting if it was something that was possible since he was at least present).

I am not against Shi returning, but I really do try hard to separate myself from my character. I really do mean it when I say you need to convince her, not me, that you want her to return. I also do mean it that I am up for the option of having her brought back against her will. I've planned for her possible death once I really got her personality better sorted out. That's why I suggested Jennevive as an acceptable out, provided Jennevive was willing to be an out. It could be a really, really interesting and potentially fun dynamic and conflict to work through.

Just to consider: you have an elf who has always been wary about humans, who was just killed by a human she considered a friend. If she comes back, and you then convince her to stay, will there be contention, especially with Neith? Absolutely. That does not mean you can't win her back over, but it will take time, patience, and good faith (and you have Thistle, a human, to try to get through to Shi that humans aren't bad, but that they also aren't perfect and definitely make mistakes - seriously, play up the elves are better than human angle and humans are just sad and need guidance; she really is a very prideful elf) . No, she will not want to kill Neith, but she will want distance and time to reflect.

If you all convince her to come back, and then convince her to stay, just know she will have no plans to return to help with Skull Church. I'm not sure yet if she'll just meditate at her brand new shrine, or if she'll go back home (and to the sunshine) for a while. Her not being present for the story arc is a minor thing in comparison to everything else, but do plan for it.

So after all this long, lovely reading, I have one favor to ask you Michael: be there on Friday, and please do help convince Shi to return. Have Neith ready to plead her case, make Shi listen, prepare and accept that there will be some aftermath and conflict, but be there.

Besides the fact that I can feel TMO's glare through the computer screen (and seriously, the paperwork he's requiring is absolutely ridiculous), I do agree that this shouldn't be a last memory of this campaign. We can work through this. Look how far we've already come. I cannot make any decision for you on if you should take a break or not, especially as that thought has gone through my head, too, but at least be there on Friday. After that, take time to think about what this game really means to you, and if you really are willing to walk away from something you enjoy. It's more or less what I was told to do earlier this week. It's a decision that should be made with a cleared head, not an emotional one. I'm still working through it, too, so I do understand, but make sure you really and truly think it through.

Edit: As for reaching Shi? Thistle is a gypsy. She can do blood magic fortune telling. Can she also talk to the dead? I don't know, but just something else for consideration. Also thanks to John for lodging the thought of beastmaster in my head. I didn't know that was a thing. Hmm...

In other news, that stupid cold I had two weeks ago? It became a sinus infection and bronchitis. And this, kids, is why you should see the doctor when you aren't getting better. The doctor does think I'll be able to fly on Thursday so this shouldn't impact my plans to be on for Friday. (Edit: but that said, I am on some pretty heavy meds so, uh, what we can do early, let's do because I don't know how I'll be later in the night provided I don't have to call it a night early for any number of reasons).

4/17 Lisa

Michael Ė

Thanks for posting, and I agree with everyone above that we donít want you to leave as much as we donít want Carissa to either. Please, please come in on Friday so we can all regroup.

I knew you had a busy schedule, but you really do have quite a ton on your plate right now! Thatís more than I think I could possibly keep up with! Iím sorry I have not been helping more. I do get tentative with that, because I do want you to have the fun of making choices and owning the characters. I found a great website that has all the 2nd ed. priest spells on it, so if you need me to look up parameters (itís bad with tables though), I can do that if you ask. You can make the choices and we can make sure of the parameters/components, etc. I have all 4 mage books in a folder too for that matter. I donít mind looking things up, itís just I need to know when I need to.

Or Ö maybe Hugh is the best character to run on field trips right now until your schedule lightens a bit and you can put some time into Neith. Casters are really hard to run if you want to do more with them than the same 3 spells all the time! They just are. Neith can be running the church at home and working and roleplaying the ordeals of running Dragon Fen and raising a dagger wielding child. Iíll tell you as much as I love running Branwyn, the simplicity of just being Indigo sometimes brings me as much fun and is a relief at times.

There are all sorts of possibilities. You just need to come in as usual on Friday!

Carissa Ė

Thanks for posting too. Glad you are starting to feel better and will be able to get home to your kittens soon! Iím sure they miss you.

You know me Ė as soon as something happens I already have plans in my head. (Yes John, Lisa plans. She just doesnít think too long about them.) I looked up the Speak with Dead spell (because I was looking up spells this week Ė surprise?) A 7th lvl priest can only ask 3 questions and the time with the dead only lasts 3 rds. So not a whole lot of time for chit chat with the deceased. Jennevive could ask 4 questions and the spell would last a turn (10 rds?).

So the question going through my head is Ė if we ask Shi and she says no and we bring her back anyway Ė is that worse than just bringing her back? We get to hear - I just told you ďnoĒ 2 minutes ago and now look at me!!! Iím alive!


Do we not ask and just do it? If we go that route, I would offer that we have Branwyn and Jennevive do it. Not Kel since the two of them already had a big conversation about it and I donít want to hurt that relationship if at all possible. As much as Shiís death was a blow, I donít want to add a major problem in the Shi/Kel love story on top of it. The anger can head in our direction and we can take it. I already have Branwyn conversations running through my head on this. If things get really bad, Branwyn can put Shi in a healing dream that will give her almost 2 days worth of the best sleep of her life with the most pleasant, happy dreams you can imagine.

I was also thinking like you were, maybe not having Shi go back to Skull Church right away and communing with the wolves, Thistle and Ancien. TMO has his guild guys all suited up and there would be characters to play. Or you could take Johan. All sorts of possibilities.

Those were just the things running through my head the last few days. We will work with this however you want. I just wanted to toss some more stuff out there for consideration.

4-17 TMO

I believe, and BOB will correct me if I'm wrong, that there's actually a very simple answer to the "Do we ask Shi if she wants to come back" question - we can't ask her within the Mist. I'm not positive, but I think the discussion about Shi not wanting to be brought back was between Kel and Shi in Elven, so if the rest of the party is ignorant of her wishes, they could just bring her back on the assumption that's what they wanted, before Kel has a chance to enlighten them. Just like with Ilero. ;)

Then all the recriminations and apologies and arguments could happen about how could they do this to her and so on and so forth. ;)

4/17 Carissa

Yeahhh, definitely try to plan around Kel and his reactions to, er, all of it.

So the conversation you're thinking of TMO: Main.20181026c

Half of it, sadly, wasn't in Elven, but her telling Kel to burn her body and go if he didn't know if she'd reached Aravaith was in Elven. To that token, there is definite plausible deniability. She hasn't been dead long. Kel wasn't dead long. They have every reason to believe she's not to Aravaith yet. To add to that, long ago she had that conversation with Indigo about the importance of her body returning home before her soul could rest (and if he should try to retrieve it if a giant gar ate her; forget which leg of the knarr trips it was on). Would she think they should still ask? Of course, but silly humans think they know better (with every right to from what information she has given them before).

Yes, Speak to Dead is a very limited spell, and the questions are yes and no. I think BOB's remark about gypsies speaking to dead was referring to the Seewick seance where there is more flexibility with questions, but again, not sure if that is available and/or how soon.

Bringing her back after asking her would make her mad (if you don't and/or can't convince her). Bringing her back without asking her would make her mad AND completely confuse her because then she'll have to figure out why (and eventually accept that it wasn't intentional for her to die, and they do care about her).

I did realize that Thistle can be a useful pest to at least keep Shi in Dragon Fen until her training is done. I forgot about Ancien. She will definitely need to do some communing with him, too.

A note for the sleep spell: Elves have 90% immunity to sleep and charm. I don't know if that spell is an exception. Just to keep in mind.

Aside from that, these are good plans (you plan, Lisa???), especially if you're prepared for the reaction/conversations.

As for your ideas for Michael, I also agree it's a valid thought that, maybe for now, sticking with just Hugh isn't a bad idea. Or, if you want to keep playing Neith, maybe just stick with only healing/support spells like Mara. And yes, still asking you be there on Friday for us to regroup :)

4/19 Spring


A few things.

I strongly suspect I am the least involved player in the group. Right or wrong, I don't devote much time beyond the Friday nights themselves. And I am immensely grateful to be accepted anyway. So, at a thumbnail sketch, as a matter of personal opinion only, "I'm not involved enough" is only viable if you attend less than 30-some-odd percent of sessions and otherwise don't participate at all. That was my level year before last, and it seemed to be fine.

The other characters not realizing Shi wouldn't want to be resurrected looks doable to me. Trying without asking might work.

I do think drastic actions require some slowing down in realtime. Sometimes I feel hasty when we are in combat, and there's really no reason for it. Player time is not on the line. We can take the time. Sometimes I feel this sense of urgency that's only in my head, and I suspect I'm not the only one.

And I did say in chat that it's way cool to cut to a different scene if a key character is missing their player.

That's all I've got to say about that.

4/20 Carissa

I figure it's better to post this now than to wait. There were two final thoughts regarding all this that I came away with from last night:

  1. You all are right in that I do still enjoy playing this game, and I am not ready yet to take a break BUT
  2. I do need to take a break from the creation portion of this game.

I enjoy playing as much as I enjoy creating. The playing part is easier to address, and I'm still here because we did address it, but the creation portion? I don't know how to fix that part. Maybe it's just become less enjoyable or maybe it feels less appreciated or maybe I just lack desire or maybe I just lack inspiration or maybe all of it and more or none of it and something else.

After typing that I'd write the Thistle/Shi interaction later, I realized I wasn't excited to do it. Honestly, I'm going to put that off until I look forward to writing it. Maybe that'll be a few days. Maybe that'll be a few weeks. I'm also not wanting to write summaries or make playlists or any of that stuff. So for now, please don't expect any of that from me. I have other projects outside this game to direct my creative energies to right now. I'm not asking anyone to step up to the plate and do them in the meantime. I'm only saying that I will not be do them for an indeterminate amount of time.

4/20 Lisa

So glad to hear your first point!

And I totally understand your second. There are probably many different factors that you mentioned contributing to your decision and not just one of them. For the appreciation part, there are times I feel all the extras I do are completely unappreciated - and then I have to remind myself that they aren't. But sometimes I need to hear someone say it. So here is your dose from me quite sincerely. I absolutely love your summaries and roleplay and all the extra things you have brought to our game in what is really a very short time of playing (relatively speaking). I know doing all the writing and research and the thinking, pondering and planning takes time from other real life things. I very much appreciate everything to do to make our game more special and what it takes to make those things happen. While you are on sabbatical please don't think that I don't.

When and if you decide to take up writing again, it would make me very happy. None of this is mandatory by any means and I hope you don't feel any pressure to do it. I'm glad that you will be in on Fridays and, like the badger, you just do you!

Yes please Carissa (and Lisa too for all her hard work) this is supposed to be fun. Never homework have to do dread it the next day.

IF we get summaries and music lists and cleaned up chat that is great. It is not required, we went decades without it. I used to do a summary once a story arc, these have been a wonderful new tradition but they can go away too.

OR others can pick up and show their flair. Mario has done great summaries, I know TMO has it in him too. I wonder if TMO can automate the cleaning of chat more? John can do music easily enough, Ryan is good with quotes, it would be interesting to see his summaries. As Spring mentioned above no one needs to spend time on Fridays with us so when people choose to that is enough for me.

Hoping that everyone enjoys the stories. The darker episodes like this make the triumphs that much better.

Hey all, hopefully Bob let you know I was at work. Good news, in 32 hours we got all the migration stuff moved for 36 departments! That being said Still need to read chat logs. Have no idea what you guys did, but I have full access to computer again (not company owned :) ) so will post my initial thoughts and plans that I originally gave to bob. Again, I'm very tired so am going to go back to bed and will read stuff as soon as I get up. If any of this is now irrelevant I guess ignore? And, i'll try to figure it out later.

This was original email sent to bob. I've removed the back and forth because there was a lot of it. Some stuff bob said he could work with and others not so much.

Simplified Plan of Action:

Alright, so since I canít speak to you right now, this is the best I can do. We are migrating systems definitely tonight and I have no idea if Iíll still be up for joining back in next week. Honest Bob, last Friday has hung over me like a dark cloud this week and it sure as hell ainít worth bleeding over into my actual life. But, weíll talk later.

So. The Question: How do we bring Shi back?

Well. Carissa has stated that Jenneveive as an ďoutĒ would be acceptable or would be willing to roleplay being brought back against her will. Furthermore, we donít actually know regarding the state of the mist whether or not sheís even made it back to elf-land. Sorry am on break and am not looking up names right now so Elf-Land will have to do for now.

However, no one seems to consider how Neith would feel about doing something so catastrophic. Or, that the dumb humans might be misguided.

Furthermore, as a religious person (Priest) she might feel compelled to maintain balance for what she might see as a wrong done by her and fix it at any cost.

So, my argument is this.

I say, that when everyone else is distracted, Neith at least attempts to use the Rod on Shi, leave a note (that I still need to write up, but something along the lines of ďI Know youíll hate meÖ. ButÖ.Ē) Then, I want her to explain her plans to Hugh (have those, just donít have the time to write them right this second) take their child and leave quietly and expediently to her parent's estate. Mercy stays though! This is because of Bran's kid. They are friends and although Nieth and their other kid is leaving they will be visiting often. She is leaving the mists for her own goals (which I also have in mind) Hugh will retain Mercy and stay within the Mists (In case I do decide to eventually come back). Then when Hugh wants to visit, Neith has a spell to dimension door so that they can quickly move back and forth to an area just outside the mist back to her estate.

Obviously, there might be holes in this because Iím not ruling checking but this is one of the few ways I can see this working out for everyoneís benefit. Carissa gets a beloved character back, and I donít have to deal with this stress anymore.

There was one action I really really really wanted to do, but everyone would be more upset. Originally in this little drama, in the process of hightailing it out of Branwynís estate, I was going to have Neith SMASH the damn rod. Relying on that damn thing might be one of the reasons this was so blasť to me and I think itís a poor substitute for simply being more careful about life and death in the game.

I then thought about Lisa and everyone flying to Phoenix to strangle me in my sleep, so I thought about Hiding the rod at her parentís estate. Still available in the direst of circumstances, yet not easily available for people like me, who accept it and might be willing to abuse it. Everyone might suspect Hugh knows how to obtain it, but he won't say unless there is no other choice. So I would consider this a canonical action.

Frankly, I like the second situation better and would have no qualms about doing it. The explanation of why she did both actions would be in Shiís letter. (Again, I know what I want, but still, have to write it and I have like 5 more minutes to get this emailed to you)

On her way out she will also be taking two of the gems that Illero is currently holding for an appraisal from the attacking tree. (I think this was the tree where two characters including Neith lightning struck ironically enough) If that is the correct tree, Neith is taking that as her due for taking down that enemy. She will also be taking 100 GP with her. (She plans to pay it back, itís for safe passage and for enacting her own plans that again I STILL NEED TO FIND TIME TO WRITE DOWN!!!!) Hugh will also guarantee the money however if necessary. Neith will leave a letter for Bran as well.

So, this is the plan that Iíve literally spent a whole week thinking about and you probably will find tons of holes in and shut down. Well, if thatís the case, I tried. Feel free to post whatever of this you want on the site, but I didnít feel comfortable posting on the site right now and I donít know if I will again.

I would prefer to enact this plan tonight, but again I won't be here. I will try because it was my mistake, but Iím also not going to let SRPís systems shut down because I want to fix a mistake I made in-game no matter how guilty and shit I feel like right now.

Sigh. End of plan. Again, sorry for how barebones this is right now. Iíll try and flesh it out more properly Saturday or Sunday morning if it succeeds but if not, then I won't bother.

4-21 BOB


This is one of the most inconsiderate things that I have seen happen in our game.

  1. - On 4-12 we have a major problem in the game with characters
  2. - Over the next week there are many posts both here and in discord discussing it
  3. - You do not read any of those posts
  4. - You write me an email (which you posted above) that I respond back to explaining why it will not work or be helpful
  5. - You respond back and forth in email discussing alternatives and how you could proceed, I give you responses and feedback, we exchanged 5 emails overall
  6. - You do not log into the game on 4-19 for very valid reasons
  7. - You do not read the chat log of that night
  8. - You do not read the posts after the session is over
  9. - You decide to make this post above that ignores all that has happened since 4-12 just to make your self feel better and blurt out useless ideas (yes I use that word purposefully) by posting the first email you sent me telling me what you wanted to happen ignoring all that I told you about why it would not work.

The problems from 4-12 were dealt with. I would not say they are over, that everyone is happy and moving forward like before, but we are on the path to havign players feel better and creating new story lines that account for what happened and what might happen in the future. WHICH YOU WOULD KNOW IF YOU BOTHERED TO READ.

Michael - You have roleplaying skills, you are creative and come up with ideas that others enjoy and want to participate in. This was not helpful at all.

The solution you posted here and I responded to you in email several times during the week. What you wrote above (to borrow a phrase from someone else) is good for a novel or a story where you are in control of all the characters. But this is a participatory game where you get to propose ideas and then you have to follow through with others and how they react to them. You can be logged in and roleplay out ideas that you would like to see happen. That does not mean that others have to go along with your plans. That does not mean that your plans will happen.

I understand wanting to post to tell everyone how you felt. I understand posting ideas for how to work through this problem.

I do not understand how - if you really want to be helpful and make everyone feel better - that you would state that you cannot be bothered to read the chat or OOC from this thread before you post. It would have been far better to take the time to read and understand what everyone said and did before commenting. You should have understood from my responses in email what was possible and not. So I do not understand why you would then post things you know will not work or will upset people. It is insulting to everyone in the game that you think your ideas are more important, that you should just blurt them out without thinking about what the impact of your words will have on others.

Yes this sounds like I am angry. Because I am.

You can be a good roleplayer, you can contribute to the group overall and help everyone have a good time. It would have been far better to be quiet and read and contemplate what to say. There was no reason to post this other than selfish make yourself feel better.

Characters come and Characters go. Carissa and Mario both have lots of things to consider both in who and how they want to play. I am not going to tell them how to run their characters. Spring, Ryan, John, Lisa and TMO helped Carissa get through a difficult session. TMO even got her to laugh. I am confident that we are going forward in a good way now after what took place on the this thread and on 4-19 and after.

If you personally feel that you do not want to handle those sort of interactions that is perfectly acceptable. Everyone has a different tolerance for what they want to do in roleplay. But because you do not feel comfortable with something does not mean that it will not happen nor does it mean that others have to give into that either.

Overall I feel that we are moving forward after the events of 4-12.

I am going to rule that Neith and Hugh along with the kids are off and heading back to their home in Terraguard. Branwyn has given them funds for the trip home and those characters are retired. Which means that I am in control of them now. I will if needed work them back into the story arcs as I wish.

When you return in a few weeks or how ever long of a break you need you can create a new character from 1/2 the XP of Hugh. When you create your new character it will be good to see how you roleplay a new character.

6/1 Carissa

Read the chat during first flight. Current thoughts to add:

If it's related to Etienne, his nemesis HATES priests. He also had lots of time on his hands. Maybe he raised the griffons because lady person has a unicorn? And was it really "random" that the griffons first attacked our two priestess? Or were they trained to? Of course if the priest are the ones sacrificing dwarves, well, I'm confused. Also not sure about the goblins yet, but that it's still early in the morning... (and somehow June already??).

Will add more if I think on it.

Add: Goblin and gnome connection? Rock gnomes sometimes speak goblin probably because goblins also mine. Could we use the gnomes to help OR are they the ones wanting to attack the gnomes? I think Lisa mentioned something about it, but can't remember to what extent...

6/18 Lisa

Just wanted to say again that I donít think ďPeteĒ is the high level priest that is not only pulling Suomi priests out of their sarcophagi and turning them into ghasts and ghouls, but is also the one who is hiring carpenters and visiting them daily to oversee their progress. I would think that the owner of the church would want their hirelings to call him/her by their formal title, like Archbishop, Your Evilness, or whatever high level Suomi priests are called.

Iím thinking we need to be wary (of course), but I donít think the Pete meeting at sunset will be an epic battle against a high level caster.

Lisaís two-second plan would be to tie up Many and the apprentices to the back pews so when Pete comes in, he will be distracted about releasing his workers and then we ambush him and question him about who and where the real evil boss is. We never get to ambush anyone! Or maybe it doesnít need to be that complicated. :-)

6/29 Lisa

So do I get 10 XP for being right about Pete? ;-)

I donít want to rehash the whole evening, but there were a couple things I wanted to get out of my system.

I think I know what Bobís going to say Ė which is why I didnít bring it up on Friday. It was really bad luck that John or Ryan werenít in and we had to deal with the sometimes cognizant and sometimes not NPC in their place. Howard told Tiberius to ďhelp them.Ē So when he runs up the aisle and is faced with a heavily wounded woman next to a hellhound or a girl with a wand, he ignores the hellhound and wounded group member and totally decimates the girl. Bob Ė you were playing Tiberius as incapable of common sense and completely oblivious to the fact that we were looking for answers for both Skarp and Ilero. If he knew enough about the plan not to break the invisibility, how could he not have known enough that we wanted to question people and not kill them, much less a young girl? This is me whining more than anything else.

Next for Bob Ė you hadnít loaded Black Cloak with spells so typed that he cast a Fireball at the group that did the max damage. Is this correct?

The reason I ask is that there is no priest spell I can find called Fireball. Black Cloak would then be a mage fixing up a church. Fireball maxes out at 10d6 so this means this mage is at the very least 10th level. But it blows a major hole through the crazy Suomi priest cult thing. Do we need to go back to the vampire mage killing dwarves to make Mist thing? Iím thinking yes at first glance.

More next for Bob Ė I donít recall specifically if Tiberius had a view on coming back from the dead. I confirmed my suspicions that he would need a resurrection, which Greeks are okay with. Itís a much higher level spell so Branwyn would need to get him to Loosend and see what kind of deal she could make if she brought him back. So I need to know what they would have decided so she can make plans when I have to roleplay her seeing her husband next week.

At the moment I am thinking we need to gather forces and not rush back to the church. Branwynís first priority would be to her family Ė either burying or saving her husband. Then after processing exactly what happened, yes Black Cloak needs to be stopped but I am thinking we need more casters. Can we recruit Etienne to come back? At the very least get Jennevive. Maybe Red Cloak.

6-30 BOB

1 - grins, I added the 10 XP

2 - Yes to Tiberius running up and killing the girl as not expected. The way I saw it was that she tried to cast a spell at the group at the altar, not at the two apprentices at the door that Digger was dealing with. Tiberius always is impressed with spell casters and how dangerous they are so take them out right away. Plus a little girl does not equal Pete in his mind. (That would have been a fun twist but I did not come up with a good name to shorten to Pete for a girl) So he ran up, takes her out and then helps with the hell hound, or not.

3 - Yes to casting Fireball at max hit die level but not max damage

4 - Yes to that meaning he is a Mage and not a Priest. Not going into more than that except to say priests and mages do work together sometimes.

5 - Yes to Greeks being ok with coming back, there is a tradition there of 'go the distance' to bring back a loved one

6 - Tiberius would be ok with coming back if Branwyn wanted that

7 - YES! Going to recruit people to help is a very nice thing and an excellent plot twist to go get help from people like Jenn and Red Cloak just makes it that much more fun

Also yes to the 'not loaded' 'no changes made' activities with the icons. To try to heighten tension I wanted to hide most things from the players so they would not know how strong, damaged etc they were. To make the combats a bit more 'fog of war'. Not sure if we should carry that forward. Thoughts?

6/30 Lisa

Thanks! BTW - one of the many things I am kicking myself over is that I didn't have one of my guys ask Black Cloak what his name was. After all this, he is still a mystery.

I will bring Tiberius back and then both Branwyn and Tiberius will be on their last lives.

About hiding the enemy hps and damage level, I'm okay with that. It threw me for a second because sometimes when you do that it means that your hit didn't take - that they were protected somehow. Once I knew they were still getting hit, I just started paying attention to how many pts of damage they were taking. Hiding it definitely makes it more realistic. I know if I can see how many hps an enemy has, it affects where I send my characters, which spells I choose, etc. I'm not going to blow a many jaws spell on a creature with 12 hps for example. If I have no clue except from my characters' experience it makes the calls harder, but not impossible. It's more challenging. I'm good either way.

6/30 TMO

If you can change the text, 'not shown' or something like that. The "no changes made" really made it look like we weren't doing anything at all to them. ;) But now that we know what that means it's not as important.

Lisa, YES that Guiote and Michel should have run from the Hellhound. It just honestly never occurred to me, and I imagine to Carissa as well. Although they'd get a free attack I think? I may be getting that confused with 5E D&D though, where I know attacks of opportunity happen, I think they happen in 2.5 also. So, at any rate, something we need to keep in mind in the future when playing the scrubs.

Black Cloak could be a necromancer, btw. Mages that do undead things.

6/30 Lisa

Bob can correct me if I'm wrong, but yes the opponent could get an attack of opportunity but I believe it would be like a parting shot. Just one hit attempt and not their full attack potential. So instead of bites and flames, only one roll to the runner and only to the one engaged. Michel wasn't discovered and so I believe he could have ran free and clear. It's one of those decisions if you make them, the sooner the better. I did that with Indigo and a Cyclops. He hit Indigo once and did 20+ dmg in one hit. So I had Indigo immediately get the hell out of there. It's just a thought I had when I was thinking about how low level characters could work in high level situations.

And yes, Black Cloak is likely a necromancer. This is what makes recruiting Red Cloak (also a high level necromancer) very enticing. Evil v. Evil. Bring the popcorn!

6/30 Carissa

In my defense, and not blaming anyone, I didn't actually take control of Guiote and Michel until after the encounter since I logged on right as Guiote was being chewed on. I mean, maybe I should have paid more attention right as I got on, but eh, not sure if my actions would or wouldn't have changed. And to be fair, I probably should have had Michel drag Guiote away faster, but it was one of those where I wasn't sure if I had to move the icons or just assumed that he couldn't have dragged her away faster than the fireball could fly.

Anyways, also agree. I'm fine with the changes. It does make us have to consider our moves a bit better, but the two suggestions if we keep that route are: (1) agreed upon wording change (knowing we actually ARE causing damage), and (2) if there is fog of war, would we at least be allowed to ask about the condition of the enemy? Even if people don't have HP in real life, you can at least almost always tell between a person barely staying alive and one fresh out of bed/crypt/wherever. :)

Lastly, I haven't "met" Red Cloak yet, only heard about him from the Jenn convos so also hope you convince him to help. It could be a very, very interesting encounter. I'll need to run to the store and grab popcorn, though!

7/3 Lisa

Possible Allies: Feel free to add anyone else

Note: Enlisting any or all of the parties below will likely come at a cost and not necessarily a monetary one.

Father Wilkhorn: Kayugan priest in the Jistille Estates. He ordered the clearing of the Archbishop of Hades and his crew from Skull Church (2nd Visit). After it was over, Tristan was given Skull Church to build and grow. Instead, Tristan came to Dryads Lair with us and then left to go on some silly Crusade. This is why Skull Church was ripe for the taking by anyone who came along.

Jennevive: Kayugan priestess, evil alignment, loves chaos, has interest in Skull Church, has anti-undead powers

Red Cloak: Estranged husband of Jennevive and brother of the Queenís Consort, Sir Toybin, evil alignment, necromancer mage, has oath not to kill/harm Indigo but the rest of us are fair game

Sir Toybin: Consort of the Queen, good alignment, accomplished knight, has other responsibilities now but may have a yearning for adventure for a good cause

Queen Willimina: Queen of Drillian and friend of the DragonSlayers. She would not help herself (of course), but she may have resources or advice.

Regor the Mad: Master thief, evil alignment, resides in the dungeon of the Jistille Keep. He would not help himself (of course), but he may have resources or advice. This man never leaves his dungeon but knows everything.

Goblin Horde: We donít know which side they are on and probably not very effective against whoever is supposed to be filling those pews, but it might be nice to at least know where they stand and come to some sort of understanding as to what we are going to be doing and if they are on the necromancerís side then we will have to deal with them as well. Maybe the gnomes know what side they are on or have someone who speaks goblin?

Etienne d'Ambrevilles: I would only want to contact him if we find out Black Cloak is Hazelthorn.