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Building Dragon Fen - Out of Character Discussions

Quick links

For upcoming planning sessions.

  • Old Man Millers tavern, about 6-8 hours west of the Jistelle Estate's area, Brothers visit every few days, Elmond and Toth were the first pair the group met there Oct 29 10 for first meeting
  • The Witch Kulgarth
  • Grey Death
  • Craniate Wastes
  • Valoris Wood

Based on my measurements Jistille Estates is about sixteen square miles, please correct me if I am wrong. I also do not see a map with Valaris Woods on it for reference.

6/13/18 - John

I have long considered magic important to the settlement of land for Player characters. The spell 'Dig' may be essential for improving the land that we acquired in the swamps but the construction guidelines take into account general spell abilities so there will be some discussion on how to incorporate specific spells into the generic building guide.

I do have a copy of a spreadsheet for the building cost, just let me know where to put it.

I also want to confirm if the farming is the same inside the mist and out as well as usable land for farming. We have to check all our priests because there are spells that will help again depending how we incorporate specific role-playing casting with general long term planning.

Farming is not the same in The Mist but spells will not help that in the long term. The Mist applies negatives to the Farm Profitability chart. If you have priests that can help with Plant sphere spells etc. that will be good. But as it says all those things are taken into account for the overall averages of: For ease of game play, an average production to support a population of non-farmers works out to the following. With one square mile to work (640 acres) a community of 35 people can provide enough surpluses to allow 4 non-farm workers to live there. Each person farming (ages <7 is 0 worker, 7-11 is worker, 12> is 1 worker) contributes 2.8% to the yield.

The amount of usable land will be: So with 10 square miles of the Royal Grant you can farm about 9 square miles. That means 36 non-farmers can be supported by the 315 farmers that need to be attracted to work the land. You currently are at 25-28 people in your group.

So buildings need to be worked on for those 351 people that can be expected to have a permanent residence in these new lands.

The rules for building already take into account level, spell levels and availability, magic items etc. A medium wooden building is 40 by 20 for 800 square feet and takes 12 man weeks to build.

Quick guesstimate is Lisa's three characters combine to about 30 man weeks worth of building. So in one week they can build two houses that can have as many as three or four rooms each, the ability to house 4-8 workers depending on ages, etc. So average 6 people per building means 52 medium wooden buildings to house your 315 farmers. So that would take Branwyn, Indigo and Howard about 26 weeks to build enough houses for the farmers. That does not include barns, smithy, an inn, etc. Oh and no place for all the characters to live yet either.

Costs are something to consider also. Character levels help on time but not for pricing. For those 52 medium wooden buildings at 60 GP each equals 3,120 plus if you want to put wood floors in them instead of living on dirt that would be an additional 30 GP for roughly 3,150 GP for basic farm houses in a territory like this.

Things to work out more details on:

  • How many villages do you want?
    • People do not want to walk too far to get to their crops
  • How are they organized
    • Do you allow people to live in a single house out from everyone else? or have them live in clusters
      • leather working smells, sparks burn down wooden buildings, etc.
  • Where do your characters live?
  • One large house for Branwyn's residence
    • Ilero's group in one or multiple buildings?
    • Elves living in a nearby forest?
    • Hugh and family living in a village?
    • Miranda and Hoffman living in a different village? 2 story Carpentry shop with residence on 2nd floor
    • Who lives down range of the catapult :)

Remember to check Burst of Building for details on Branwyn's Tower, with lab, library, etc. and the Church of the Defending Mage information. Mario is working on something for the church. Having a bit more of a write up for the Jistille Estates will help with organizing what you want to do with Branwyn's new estate.

12/17 John

I want to start schedule (not a plan) so we can start to see the time frame we are expecting, but having a list of things to do (still not a plan) is the first step

1) Getting home - mostly clicking and the clock does not start till we get home 2) Clear land - Before we build, we must inspect, drive away or make friends with anyone already there. I imagine not a set amount of time 3) Build - Once we work out the details we will have a minimum but expect longer as we are building in a swamp. (We want to do this to cap off XP before training or else we train, build, get more xp and want to train more) 4) Training and traveling (Not a lot of variable but if we need to coordinate who is doing what, ie Miranda can't train Kel in Swimming when she is in Loosend and Kel is in Branwynville)

12/30 Lisa

We will likely be talking building the estate this coming week, so I thought I would throw some stuff out there to ponder.

We have to name it. Ive been playing around with different names. How does Dragon Fen sound?

Then there is the matter of costs and what people want. Before we got an infusion of 250,000 gp, I was thinking we would have to sell everything we owned to build anything. And Im prepared to do that even with this extra cash. A lot of stuff in the party pack has been sitting around in there from before most of the current players even came on board. My thought is that if we havent used it by now, we might as well sell it.

Things we have to pay for:


  • I would like to get the barge for the gypsies. It would free them from Ghostwood and would be a goodwill gesture. Objections?


Estate Building:

  • Land Clearing mandatory, no clue on costs
  • Farms & Related Structures also mandatory, no clue on costs
  • Branwyn Family Residence Ill put my thoughts together and will post later on this.
  • Ileros Thief Guild includes a residence for him and Shur & Marisu or build separately together/apart?
  • Kayugan Shrine/Church for Kenna & Snee, residence attached? Does Spring want this?
  • Hoffman/Miranda/Foto 2 story Carpentry shop with residence on 2nd floor Foto lives there too?
  • Hugh/Neith/Mercy how do they want to situate themselves?
  • Kel & Shi how do they want to situate themselves?
  • Indigo & Penelope (if she sticks around) still thinking of leaving them at Orchard House
  • Howard & Johan likely also split between Orchard House and Branwyns Tower at Jistille.
  • Ryans new character??
  • Optional things if we have any cash left tavern, other guilds, markets, etc.

1/2/19 Carissa

Dragon Fen sounds nice (and I haven't any other ideas), and yes please to the barge (reason Thistle brought it up).

I'm mostly stepping back from building. Not really my forte (and all that maths!), but I would imagine some kind of treehouse for Kel and Shi with yard and den underneath for the wolves? Or at least den. Ideas I come up with for them hits a snag at being in the Mist. How can you grow awesome cool trees and such with limited sunlight? :)

Once things are agreed upon and build, I can contribute a little more in terms of world-building if wanted, like possible goods that can be sold at the market, what types of farms are around, ect. ect.

As for training, added link to the training plan to remind people who've kept up with it. Your estimate sounds about right when balancing the free skills (swimming, magic cooking?) versus all the slots now available after leveling for others (e.g. Shi has two slots, but one will likely be swimming).

1/2/19 John

Yes to bardge, we should build single family homes in groups of four for the farmers, I am hoping to find a natural area more suitable for Foto when we explore, but we need to budget something. If nothing else, he can be the blacksmith with a similar set up to Hoffman but it should be a stone building.

1-6 BOB

So with Dragon Fen you will have a more complicated relationship with everyone as you are now part of a titled landed estate.

Branwyn has the Royal Grant for 10 square miles. She can take as much land as she wants, she just will only have the claim over it that she can assert. If she claims 50 square miles for example she can then give some to Hoffman for him to claim to build his own stronghold on. Hoffman would owe fealty to Branwyn (see the Vassalage page for details) as Branwyn owes fealty to the Queen. Branwyn can bequeath a title up to Count onto Hoffman also, making him a titled landed noble. She can give titles to anyone she wishes, but the Agriculture & Holdings page lists details on what that accomplishes for various classes and levels.

If Hoffman wanted to go out and establish his own stronghold without fealty to Branwyn he can, but he will not be a titled landed noble. There is no 'wilderness' to claim in Drillian although obviously there are lots of wild areas. Everything belongs to the Queen in one form or another. So he will simply be taking land and claiming it in hopes that he can establish a strong claim that someone will accept and then the Vassalage question returns for him.

THEN we get to the problem of Marisu and her being the presumed last member of her family. As a Countess, she is a title landed noble. Does she go back to the Doeskin estates and rebuild? Does she surrender the land to the Queen but keeps her title & status? Normally that would require her to be a 9th level Bard (she is currently 6th 58,000 XP away from 9th) but we live in unusual times.

1-7-19 John

So in the scenario when Hoffman swears Homage to Branwyn (Which he basically has), does that affect any follows he gets?

And we may want to start a new thread for this wild idea. What happens if Ilerro marries Marisu? In his culture, having more than one wife is not uncommon as I understand. Would that give them a stronger hold on her ( their) lands. The whole thought of working her lands seemed off the table, at least for now, but before any decision is made, we should explore options. What happens if Marisu swears Homage to Branwyn? I know it's a lot of work, not saying we do it all now. I would love to do this in character, but my two characters just don't think this way.

And I do feel like I am interfering or pushing ideas on other players and the game, and honestly, it brings up memories of the start of the end of the last campaign but I know what really hurt the last campaign was not discussing what ALL the players wanted. I just know for me to do my part, it helps to know what others want and to let others know what I am thinking.

I had considered leaving Miranda in Loosend with or without Hoffman for a while for various reasons. The thought of having followers does give thought to other possibilities. I'll let you know what decide.

1-6 BOB

John, fealty to Branwyn only helps Hoffman with followers because it is into a more stable situation.

Marisu cannot swear fealty to Branwyn because they are equals at Court.

TMO has to think out he wants to do with Marisu over time.

I will be working on the maps very soonTM and it will be clearer but the Doeskin Estates are way too far to be part of any planning with Dragon Fen

  • Edit: New screen shot uploaded to Discord Art channel that shows the potential Dragon Fen area. It shows Jistille (10 square miles I confirmed) so you know what that size looks like, Valoris Wood (25 square miles) and where Skull Church and Redfern Lake are. There is also a 10 mile line for scale.

1/6 Carissa

Training planning is going to take a bit of coordination so please add what is relevant to your characters. I can only put down what I know which are my characters and anything recently mentioned in chat.

Skills with Trainers:

  • Swimming for Kel, Shi, ??? via almost anyone in the party.
  • Medicinal Cooking for Kenna via Koorin.
  • Ilero is self-training his 11th level thief skills. 6 weeks out of 8 completed so far. He was also training one of John's characters - I want to say Qui, but it's been a few months since the request was made (in real time), and I haven't gone searching for the info yet. If it was Qui, Ilero had better come up with something to say at the memorial. ;)
  • Branwyn needs to learn her Monster Summoning spell and perhaps a dream spell or two
  • Howard needs to learn a couple more spells - need to check Klooge for his proper lvl and whether he needs NWP training as well

Skills without Trainers:

  • Artistic Ability for Shi (unless someone has another idea).
  • Marisu has one WP she was planning on using for Diplomacy (iirc). She has no teacher, so hasn't started. The slot can be used for something else instead if she needs.

Planning to Travel:

  • Shi will need to travel to Loosend or Divaekah to get her priestess training.
    1. For her, Divaekah is more likely which is to the north for any character wanting side trips (such as to Doeskin Estates).
  • Miranda wants to visit Loosend during this timeframe. John can add his plans for her and that trip.
  • As mentioned in Discord, recovering Doeskin is Marisu's priority. She went along on this wedding trip because she was specifically ordered to and if she didn't, she might not have made it back to Doeskin. Her second priority is finding her little sister. I don't know how to best achieve this in game play - it sounds like Bob isn't wanting to retire her permanently from the game, so there may be sessions or partial sessions following her progress. Bob knows what he wants to do, and I'm game for any of it, even if the best solution is the retirement from PC to NPC status.
  • Ilero does need to go back to Blackwater someday, to consult with some priests of his religion. If there are any closer, he can talk to them instead. He's not anxious to confront his family, and will probably try to skip that if possible.

1/7/2019 Lisa

John, I wanted to respond to this to you and to everyone in the group. I completely agree that everyone needs to say what they want and we will see what we can do to make that happen. This is why I posted lines above for each character group so people can start listing what they want. No one has filled anything in except me and you.

We cant build anything or plan on costs until we know what we are building. John, you were talking about followers. I cant see Hoffman getting followers to a carpentry shop. Is there some better structure to encourage that? Do you want it to be a team thing with the other fighters in the group or just yours? Again, we cant budget and build until we know what everyone wants.

I am really, really trying not to make this estate building about Branwyn and making it for everyone with the limited resources we have. 300K can go really fast depending on what we end up with. Besides all the buildings, we also have to furnish them all. (Please come to dinner at Branwyns, we are all eating on the floor.) Im not building anything for Indigo or Branwyns apprentices to make sure everyone is able to build something that they want and will make them happy. All I want for Branwyn is a wood house and a small lab out back and maybe something for Branadarus. I am clueless on what fighters need other than beds and swords! If there is some money left, I would like to have something close by for them to sleep over if needed but would not need to be anything fancy.

And you know me! I hate planning. Once everything is in place and we are rolling for natural disasters, Im good. But I am going to be feeling like ripping my skin off if we have to do 5 hours in game of I dont know what I want stuff on Friday.

In my opinion, it is better to come to the table with everything you want and we can scale back or make some structures a Phase II task rather than not say anything and have us be done and be disappointed. E.g., the elves were talking treehouses. Okay. Does Shi want a shrine to Solonor? Things like that. And yes, we may need a Phase II. We are mercenary adventurers. We need more cash, we just go out and earn it.

BOB I know you are talking about the estate placement. Since I am keeping the links to Orchard House and the tower, having the estate adjacent would be optimal, or at least have Branwyns house closer in that direction to make it easier for her henchmen to be able to reach her.

Answers so far:

The Hoffman stronghold and the Ilero guild can both be inside of Branwyn's Dragon Fen Estate and they both get followers also.

However Hoffman would want his "own" lands inside of Dragon Fen to clear out as well.

Brawnyn wants to use the 10 square miles of the Royal Grant because (as way up above) she needs X amount of farmers to provide for having two dozen or more non-farmers around the Estate. So to add in more farmers for Hoffman to use to feed his retainers, followers, etc. he would want to expand out the size of Dragon Fen with Branwyn to a minimum of double in size. You have to be able to feed all those followers.

Which is also why I chose that area in the Craniate Wastes because it is largely desolate and the group can reclaim it for the Queen and make it productive.

One possible way this plays out: Dragon Fen is established from Valoris Wood north by 10 miles and east and west of the Manor house by 5 miles each way. That gives you 100 square miles of land under Branwyn. Extending from Skull Church to Valoris Wood. She then 'allows' Hoffman to establish his Stronghold on the far western edge taking up at least the 6 mile radius around his new keep. Ilero builds his school for scouts in a village along the eastern edge with the swamps. Hoffman attracts 50-100 followers, Ilero attracts a dozen or so scouts. Both owe fealty to Branwyn. Dragon Fen now contains a dozen groupings of farmers and other small industries. Over the next few years of building and celebrating the new Estate somewhere around 3,000 people populate Dragon Fen. All owing eventual fealty to Branwyn. Who also collects those rents and taxes and owes those to the Queen, etc. Hoffman and Ilero are their own rightful Lords with full prestige rights and responsibilities.

This will NOT happen in 4 or 5 game sessions of planning and building. BUT if that is where people want to go as a direction then we start with that now. It will take a large chunk of money for Hoffman to build his stronghold, my guess is more than you have now in total. Build the ground work now with a nice Manor for Branwyn after everyone has their dwellings in place. Then during adventures clearing and building etc more things will come along. Then an adventure or three to go get some money to pay for building a keep for Hoffman, etc. There are lots of possibilities out there.

Look at this as a investment in Branwyn's lands so that in the near future everyone else has that boost to their own plans.

We will all help Lisa survive the planning portion so she has the fun of adventuring to clear the lands. :)

Also Yes to Lisa. Placing the Manor along the northern edge of the Valoris Wood means one of the things to accomplish during clearing your lands will be to establish a 'safe' passage through the wood south into Jistille.

1/7 Carissa

@TMO: there are towns on the Chandler Cowles River in Northern Drillian that have Suomi priest(s) including Willow Grove and Pine Brook so Ilero can avoid going to Blackwater if he wants although they're smaller towns. Although that said, one of the few requirements BOB had when making those towns was Suomi religion so there are probably others and maybe bigger towns in Northern Drillian. At the least, Jared is from Willow Grove which does have a priest obsessed with death (meaning maybe he told Ilero once so now Ilero might know of it) so that could be fun, but just something to keep in mind. No hard feelings if you don't go there - just easiest for me to remember and know places I've put together better than look up places I've never been :P

In regards to planning, also not a huge fan and hope to avoid on Friday. I have a hard time trying to figure out what is or isn't needed. I'm not a builder/designer by any means so if I haven't mentioned what I want (such as the shrine) it's probably because the thought hasn't crossed my mind. The best I can provide right now are: two bedroom treehouse (aka main and guestroom/doghouse for Kel because always a good chance he'll do something stupid and end up there) built in the forested part of the land with small den in the tree and/or against it (maybe built of rock or just do shape earth). I'm thinking yes to Solonor Shrine, but the most basic and simple we can get away with as Shi won't feel a need for anything more (just something more for her because it also feels slightly blasphemous to build on in The Mist; although if she has time again, she wants to try and create health potions once more so the shrine will need to be good enough for that). Maybe a small garden plot for experimental plantings. I don't know if that mostly answers it? Or if there are other planning questions you want me to try to figure out?

And of course Mario needs to add whatever he thinks because maybe Kel wants something slightly different. Dunno.

1/7/19 John

I completely understand some people not wanting to plan or do too much building talk on Friday. I think we need to take this whole process step by step. First we get a consensus by early Friday (game time) that what we are doing first is clearing land, how much and where. This will allow most of Friday for role-plaing and roll playing as there will be encounters. I have a few things I will be starting on line and be ready to review Friday for those that don't post here.

Update: many will have to work on characters for recent leveling

1/7/19 Lisa

Also - As soon as TMO is in, I would like to have Ilero do a slew of appraising as well. We can't have our garage sale until we know how much everything is worth.

(I expect a huge fight over the chair!! ;-) )

1/7 Carissa

I can handle step at a time much better :)

For what it's worth for planning, part of the reason I'm thinking Artistic Ability for Shi is not only to fit her character, but then she can help appraise art objects. Not sure we have many for selling, but just tossing it out there.

1-8 John

So I started a page for to do list and then timeline for when they get done. I think talking with the Treant with the elves helps develop a plan not only for the elves but for the passage thru his woods. I am sure there will be other role playing when we get back and I hope we can start some clearing so we know how it works and have some encounters. All of which will help refine the details we have not yet confirmed.

1/9 Carissa

Another for what it's worth for planting, and to keep in mind for planning, is where we fit training into all of the building. The main reason I'm so focused on training is Shi will gain access to 4th Level Spells which are all on plant domain including talking to plants. I don't know much about Treant interaction, and how much of an advantage we would want, but the spells she'll gain could be important - but, again, she needs training first and that will also involve a trip outside of the Mist as far as we know.

1/9 Lisa

In BOB's world, our treant speaks Common, so you can communicate. The more skills you have of course, the more he will be impressed by you. Another factor, especially with the spell casters, is that the higher your spell levels, the more you can contribute to the building. It would be nice, for instance, if Howard can train in 3rd level spells. It increases what he can contribute and will make it go faster. And for Howard, I'm sending him to Loosend for training. I am not going to do the Glitterdust thing again. There should be some elvish temples in Loosend (I hope). There's a temple for everything else there!

I think, we may need to do two rounds of training. One pre-building and one after we get a bunch more XP.

1/9 John

I was thinking after phase 1 of clearing and building. There will be more xp and we need the place to live. We can limit the clearing and/or number of farm houses or make fewer larger ones but the way construction works, I'm not how much an effect it will have. I am also a fan of letting you train now if you want or certainly confirm where you need to go.

1/9 Carissa

@BOB: How long would it take to get to Loosend versus how long would it take to get to Divaekah? Part of where I want to send Shi will depend on what stories I can write. Obviously there is far more fodder in Divaekah, but meeting elves in Loosend could be very fun, too (and both can be done on site if needed so less worry there). As I want her trained before talking to any treant, I do want to weigh which one will be the quicker option provided there is one. I guess the other question is what would be the cost difference and will it matter much? I'd think it'd be very cheap to go home versus new city, but maybe it'd similar pricing.

Lots to consider on which one is the better option for her (including second skill training cost if she gets it).

If possible for timeline, getting taught swimming before anything else would be good, too, but it could wait. Her second ability could wait, too, although another question for BOB: can an elf actually appraise art objects? Has she a better understand of currency to actually be able to appraise anything...? Or is that skill better spent somewhere else because she actually won't be as useful for appraisals? :P

1-10 BOB

Lisa is correct that some training then some building then some training is a very likely outcome.

Carissa, appraising is a Thief skill so it would cost Shi two slots to learn it. Not a good choice I think. However Ryan's new dwarf friend gets Appraising for Dwarves which is Reason plus 3 as a check. Someone could ask if he would like that skill.

Travel times for the characters to Loosened is definitely shorter to Loosend than it is to Divaekah. Additionally you will be able to send messages or even packages by river to Divaekah if you wish.

Yes to needing to negotiate with Acien during the entire building process. If the elves want to live there, if you want to build a track through there to Jistille, etc.

When building time comes there will be times to make choices about materials, sizes, etc. One of those will be building out of wood, do you want Close and Good? Meaning you have to take some from Valoris and anger Acien? Or Far and Poor? meaning finding wood from other areas like the swamps? There are gradients in between those extremes but we will have lots of tweaking to do during the sessions.

As Lisa pointed out higher level characters do better with building, more spell levels and spell slots available help do better with building.

Costs are all variable. Burst of Building has a good example of tackling those things. Plus the variables like making a grand church at 10% extra costs, etc. Speaking of which there are empty slots in the bell tower waiting to be filled. Perhaps a nice wedding gift to Branwyn? Or to celebrate the Queen's new twins?

1/10 Carissa

@BOB: For what it's worth, not appraisal, but Artistic Ability. Figure elves are artistic and it's listed as General, not Thief. Just a bonus it says it can also be used to appraise art objects. If answer is still no with that clarification, I will peruse other possible proficiency skills or weapon skills (since it's technically using one of those).

Er, and now rereading it yet again, how I'm now interpreting it, it just adds a bonus to appraisal so.... maybe never mind. Sorry for the probable confusion. May not be a bad skill. Just possible can't use it as I thought.

1-10 BOB

I heartily recommend taking Artist Ability for Shi.

Just pick something she wants to be better at, Painting? Dance? Sculpture? and go for it.

1-10 TMO

Looks like Willow Grove and Pine Brook are both out of the way, but I'd be willing to bet there's a Suomi priesthood in Loosend, seeing as how it's the border between Drillian and Blackwater.

TMO, do not forget Skull Church is right around the corner....
Skull Church is occupied again? Last I remember was a mission to clear it out. Marisu's first adventure with us.

Yes to Ilero's Scout Guild at least starting in Dragon Fen, if that was a question. We won't be adding too many people to the populace. Beyond the scouts attracted, eventually there'd be at least a small staff, but we don't have to have those at the start.

And now here's a fun little quandry for you all to chime in on: Should Shurkural go with Marisu to help take care of Weres (her class enemy), or stay by Ilero's side and help clear the Fen? On an emotional and loyalty basis, staying is the answer. But if Bob would like to whittle down our forces and buff up Marisu's for the offscreen stuff we can arrange that, or if the group wants to her to do it for their own reasons.

From John -- (Lisa)

From a pure story point, Shur has to join Marisu. You can always add a follower if you need another voice and I would certainly like to know about Skull Church

1/10 Lisa

Considering how worried Shur's been about Ilero's well-being as of late, I can't see Shur leaving him unless he ordered her to. Does he want to do that?

1/10 Carissa

Agree with Lisa. From my perspective, it boils down to what's more important to Shur: Ilero or her calling?

Strategy-wise, I have no preference for whichever path you decide on.


I leave you people alone for 6 days and this is what happens!!! :)

Here's the scoop for Hugh/Neith.

Honestly, I would rather "spend" Hughs and Neiths portion on defenses for Bran. The question is, will she only have the manor house? It sounds like others will have strongholds on Bran's land, so that would be great! But, that leaves the question of "what is Bran's immediate defenses?" We all know she can kick butt from here back to...well just about anywhere. As for the people she will have to defend?

A question. Since the Wastes are as you said pretty desolate in regards to people, does that mean that Bran can "Officially" expand her domain without antagonizing the queen? Does the queen care? Also I would think the Queen would be happy if Bran reclaimed the land for the crown. But, i'm not familiar with the politics here.

I Do know that Neith has stewardship skills and other abilities that can assist with the "little domain" of Bran's. I'm not sure what training she needs. I'll try and log into Klooge later and see what's up with her. I'll try and do the same with Hugh. At work right now, but will see what I can do. I'll be adding more to this throughout the day as I have time.

Oh and another question. Can Hugh swear fealty even if he has no lands? I mean if Bran wants to give him some that up to her, but he's fine just being her body guard/ Head of her SS (Not the Nazi version!). So technically he would be (according to the vassalage sheet) be watching over her immediete subjects? That seems like it's encroaching on her stuff. Unless he's just an immediete henchmen watching over subjects for her.

And for gads sake, why are my italics not working? TMO?

1/12 Lisa

Carissa - I'm reading chat now and realized I missed one of your questions during the appraising. The tiger eye agate Branwyn gave Thistle is worth 10 gp. My thought was that she deserved a gift of her own but she's only 12 and 10 gp is a lot to a girl. I also didn't realize she was going to be a henchman of yours.

1/12 Carissa

Yeah that makes two of us who didn't know :)

It was kind of a last minute decision as she mostly fit the profile of henchman I eventually wanted so it all worked out (and was honestly decided just last week). I just wanted to offer the gem to sell if it had been worth more. As it isn't, I figure she'll soon be asking Mara to make her a necklace out of it, instead.

And for those who might want to know (mostly looking at you TMO for Shur/Ilero), apparently yes, Thistle can read fortunes like her grandmother so if Ilero does still want his read...

After step one of building

So to this point you have:

  • 52 medium wooden buildings to house your 315 farmers, each with wood floors and a wooden roof, with basic furnishings
    • 40x20 building, 800 square feet, plus 11 wall sections for the floor and roof
  • 52 large wooden buildings as barns, one per household, each with wood floors and a wood roof, open empty space for storing
    • 60x30 building, 1,800 square feet, plus 24 wall sections for the floor and roof

These 104 structures need to be divided up into hamlets and villages This cost totaled: 13,071 GP

  • 1 Large wooden building for a Trading Post, with a wood floor and wood roof
    • 60x30 building, 1,800 square feet plus 24 wall sections for the floor and roof, plus 10 wall sections for 100 feet of interior walls
  • 1 Grand wooden building for an Inn with tavern on the first floor, wood floors and roof, basic furnishings throughout
    • 3 stories tall, 45 foot tall, 80x40 for each floor, total of 9,600 square feet, 86 wall sections for wood floors and roof
    • cellar, 20x30x10, 6 tunnel sections
  • 1 Medium wooden building for a stable for the Inn, no floor, thatch roof
    • 40x20 building, 800 square feet, plus 10 wall sections for 100 feet of interior walls
  • 1 Large wooden building for a Mill, with a wood floor and wood roof
    • 60x30 building, 1,800 square feet plus 24 wall sections for the floor and roof, open area inside waiting for mill stone
  • 1 Grand wooden building for a Church, wood floors and roof,
    • 3 stories tall, 45 foot tall, 80x40 for each floor, total of 9,600 square feet, 86 wall sections for wood floors and roof
  • 1 Great wooden building for a Hosptial, wood floors and a roof
    • 2 stories tall, 30 foot tall, 60x30 for each floor, total of 3,600 square feet, 24 wall sections for wood floors and roof, 30 wall sections for 300 feet of interior walls
  • 1 Medium wooden building for a Barracks for the Sheriff, wood floor and roof
    • 40x20 building, 800 square feet, plus 11 wall sections for the floor and roof
  • 1 Large wooden building for a Boarding House, with a wood floor and wood roof
    • 60x30 building, 1,800 square feet plus 24 wall sections for the floor and roof, plus 10 wall sections for 100 feet of interior walls
  • 1 Large wooden building for a Town Hall, with a wood floor and wood roof
    • 60x30 building, 1,800 square feet plus 24 wall sections for the floor and roof, large open space inside

These 9 buildings need to be determined which town(s) they are in. Total costs for all 113 wooden buildings in Dragon Fen to this point is: 15,724

This took a total of 3 months to build because of construction delays when a large thunderstorm with a tornado wiped out over a dozen farm houses and barns that had to be rebuilt.


So, we have a few different things we need to talk about. Per bob's prompts and what we want to do.

This was <i>my</i> personal preference but by no means has to be what we go with. Just my thoughts. I like having primary projects and public works that are integral to supporting the whole area of Bran's clutches to be in a central (or capital) area. This is where primary industry, commerce, and highest concentration of estate security forces might congregate. It would also be where I would <i>LOVE</i> for there to a large fortress/Citadel near the manor. But, that is because I have always been a big proponenet of not necessarily seeking a fight, but being able to bleed them and bleed them and bleed them helms deep style until opposing forces realize it's just not worth the fight.

Bob and I got into a conversation about the future on Discord. I'm copying pasting a portion from the post because it's long and it gives a good insight to where Hugh is coming from...

I'm sorry bob. I just really want this to be bigger and a beacon to the rest of Drillian. Whether or not it happens is totally up for debate. But say the mist does dissapear and a foreign power is looming on the horizon. I would want for this place to be a beacon of hope and a show of power that would make anyone reconsider fighting to claim Drillian. I want this to not just be an "estate" but a City-State loyal to the queen that will provide vast amounts of wealth for the queen and itself, have a strong military presense, and vast universities. No doubt this may never happen in Hugh's lifetime. But I really Really want this to happen eventually. It's why I spent so much time preparing plans. Small steps I know, but I really wanted to have this be a major Central "City-State" with Hoffman and everyone else having their own actual "estates" that each contain forts and military presense that both send and receive "sustainence" from the true beast of the land. (Dragon Fen) DEEP BREATH. My rant is over and I will add this to the site because I spent five minutes typing out a damn novel.

I will add more a little later, i'm thinking deep thoughts right now.

To hell with it, i'm posting the whole thread. You'll see my state of thoughts.

...and also from a site out on the net: a hamlet is a group of houses, or small village in the country, especially a village without a church.

A village is a collection of dwelling houses, larger than a hamlet but smaller than a town. And a town is an assemblage of buildings, public and private, larger than a village and having more complete and independent local government. So there you have it.

Hamlet - small, beautifully formed, but Godless

Village, bigger with a little organisation and a church or two

Town - bigger again and organised and administered.

Size, it seems, does matter...

Hugh DAmbrayToday at 7:23 PM It likely never will be due to the way the power centers here work, but if this was a metropolis, would this estate be considered a significant political ally/enemy? I would imagine there are no Metropolises here in Drillian

BOBToday at 7:24 PM Brawnyn is a personal friend of the Queen of cource you are a center of power people will come to curry favor

Hugh DAmbrayToday at 7:24 PM Yes. But from a strictly Political/City based perspective Not personal connections

BOBToday at 7:25 PM all politics is personal

Hugh DAmbrayToday at 7:25 PM Sigh

BOBToday at 7:25 PM grins

Hugh DAmbrayToday at 7:25 PM Okay let me rephrase Pre-Medici Italy Many CityStates who all hate each others guts Would the largest City, be the most prone to carry the most Poltiical weight as enemy or friend? Of course it would in Italy. It was what happened Would it be the same here? BOBToday at 7:26 PM in Drillian it is more family connections based Hugh DAmbrayToday at 7:26 PM

Bang head on desk over and over

BOBToday at 7:26 PM

as the Queen has to pick the woman who will inherit from her plus there are no large cities in Drillian Vilmar has a nice citadel but the problems of The Mist and feeding people makes for much smaller population centers than Terraguard is over there yes you are right here in Drillian is much more you have to be nice to people is why Branwyn has so much power, she knows how to treat the Queen my guess for you is to have a larger village about a mile or two away from Dragon Fen Manor where the Church is, etc. another village near the Manor then how ever many more scattered out in the country side

Hugh DAmbrayToday at 7:31 PM I'm sorry bob. I just really want this to be bigger and a beacon to the rest of Drillian. Whether or not it happens is totally up for debate. But say the mist does dissapear and a foreign power is looming on the horizon. I would want for this place to be a beacon of hope and a show of power that would make anyone reconsider fighting to claim Drillian. I want this to not just be an "estate" but a City-State loyal to the queen that will provide vast amounts of wealth for the queen and itself, have a strong military presense, and vast universities. No doubt this may never happen in Hugh's lifetime. But I really Really want this to happen eventually. It's why I spent so much time preparing plans. Small steps I know, but I really wanted to have this be a major Central "City-State" with Hoffman and everyone else having their own actual "estates" that each contain forts and military presense that both send and receive "sustainence" from the true beast of the land. (Dragon Fen) DEEP BREATH. My rant is over and I will add this to the site because I spent five minutes typing out a damn novel.

BOBToday at 7:33 PM yes to all you said Michael, nothing against it as future planning but for right now for the next couple of game sessions in real time and months of game time we need to worry about organizing the things that were just built

Hugh DAmbrayToday at 7:33 PM Yes :smiley:

BOBToday at 7:33 PM Plus detailing what is there there is always a foriegn power on the horizon, remember the previous Ambassador from Drillian to Terragaurd tried to start a civil war in Terraguard to prevent Terraguard from invading Drillian Terragaurd can send an army of a million people if they get angry or interested enough

Hugh DAmbrayToday at 7:35 PM Just letting everyone know <i>why</i> I say the things I say. Because, in the end, I know the immedite needs and will detail them. But I want everyone to realize I'm thinking looooooooong term. If I say Canalworks, they need to realize I'm suggesting a large investment not for fun, but because a central canal works was what worked for Venice and allowed it to become the power it was in Rome. Yes And I want to have a very very large stick that makes them (uninterested) :smiley:

BOBToday at 7:35 PM The Queen's Channel is a good example of that a previous large scale project at water managemetn

Hugh DAmbrayToday at 7:36 PM It's also a great way to promote easy barging for commerce in a city And troop transport If they are reserved waterways It's things like that So i'm sorry if I jump the gun, i'm just thinking long term. So I rely on you guys to keep me grounded and not in the clouds :smiley:

BOBToday at 7:37 PM moats are 10 by 10 by 5 foot deep and cost 30 GP each or unfinished for 10 GP

Hugh DAmbrayToday at 7:37 PM Double that

BOBToday at 7:37 PM you are (who knows yet) how far from the deeper swamp

Hugh DAmbrayToday at 7:37 PM Near enough we need a lighthouse :smiley: ... Can I actually just post this thread into the sheet? Lots of good thoughts here

BOBToday at 7:38 PM so 528 moat modules for 1 mile of ten foot wide 5 foot deep canal 15,000+ GP

Hugh DAmbrayToday at 7:39 PM Hm

BOBToday at 7:39 PM so doubling that to 20 foot wide is more than twice you have already spent PLUS we are guessing one mile

Hugh DAmbrayToday at 7:39 PM Yes, but would allow two barges simultaniously

BOBToday at 7:39 PM no 20 foot allows 1 barge

Hugh DAmbrayToday at 7:39 PM Then that would have to be quad LOL

BOBToday at 7:40 PM you most likely want 5 miles long

Hugh DAmbrayToday at 7:41 PM But, what I was going to say, was that can always be expanded upon later. IF we think Long term. We could institute that everyone must maintain a 80 foot distance from the canal. This would mean that Theoretically, we could expand it. And yes, possibly even more if the city becomes much larger. BUT that is costly and requires some time to gather funds for. I don't want to be the cause of us hemmoraging money :smiley:

BOBToday at 7:43 PM so 20 foot wide by 5 miles long that is 10 foot deep that has a finished bottom will be 316,800 GP Hugh DAmbrayToday at 7:43 PM The bright side (i don't know if you take this into account) is that becasue this is a swamp. We don't exactly have to fill the canal. Dig five feet and your probably already hitting water. You just have to dig and line with rock. And yes, that sounds about right Again I don't want to be the one to make THAT decision lol


BOBToday at 7:43 PM nods a long term project nice to keep in the back of your mind

Hugh DAmbrayToday at 7:44 PM Could also partially be paid with tolls from the commerce barges who find it easier to ship goods then rely on roads or all the other variable of land travel. Much easier to fill a barge i'd imagine then have to load multiple wagons, hitch them, pay the horses feed, fix broken wheels, etc In the end, it will make money

BOBToday at 7:45 PM worry about hamlets, villages, etc Hugh DAmbrayToday at 7:45 PM Yes

BOBToday at 7:45 PM then adding in the retainers you think you need then more farmers to feed them


If people will send me how many people they need (retainers) I can figure out people needed for each of them, buildings required, and so on. If you want a particular building, let me know and I can figure otu the people needed to staff it. I'll run the finalized plans by bob, who will provide a cost estimate and time estimate. You know my email, if not message me or bob or Lisa. Don't wanna put it up here. Let me know what you want, and i'll do the rest. Although. I have a life. Not much of one, but I do have one. I would prefer with starting with the Manor and attached village. Then I for each of your own "estates" I can do each one individually. Lisa if you message me what you want, I can do research and proposals and have it on your virtual desk by friday

Signing off, Michael

Suggestions to help move things along.

1 - Dragon Fen Manor

Branwyn's manor house, attendant buildings such as an apprentice tower, barn, workout area, laboratory
small hamlet of 6 farm houses, adjacent barns, boarding house, blacksmith {not built yet} near a stream

2 - Ottertown - between 1 and 2 miles away from the Manor, closer to the center of the Estate

Church, hospital, town hall, Inn with stable, barracks
group of 10 farm houses/barns along the far side of town (N) around a well
group of 4 farm houses/barns along SW side of town, around a well

3 - Foriso Town - towards the swamps in the east, 2 to 4 miles away from the Manor

Trading Post, Mill, Scout Guild {not built yet}
group of 15 farm houses/barns

4 - Qui Fen - farther towards/into the swamps

group of 10 farm houses/barns

5 - Hamlet number 4 - three miles to the west of the Manor along Valoris Wood

group of 7 farm houses/barns

Needs names and which ever additional extra buildings you would like to have built during phase 2.

Population Notes:

Currently the group has 22 adults and (soon) 2 children for 24 non-farmers to support from the adventuring group (all on the base map currently) You added in how many people for the: Inn, Stable, Trading Post, Mill, Church, Hospital, Barracks, (a Sheriff), Boarding House & Town Hall You are going to add potentially another 24 people or so with the followers that show up at the Scout Guild under Ilero You already want to add a Blacksmith

Remember most of these places are not a single person, there is a Blacksmith, with two apprentices for example.

You can currently support 36 non-farmers and you have potentially 60+ people listed here so far. So yes more farmhouses and barns in the near future.

All of this should be organized over the next two-three weeks so after training is done next week we can adventure with these locations.

1/13 Lisa

I want to say a big thank you to everyone for doing all the estate planning last week. It is looking great! You all have such wonderful ideas I would never have thought of. I really appreciate all the thought and creativity being brought to building our little corner of BOBs world.

Since I named the Estate, I would love it if people would like to name the villages and hamlets as they are being organized.

I believe I mentioned this in chat, but to answer BOBs question of where I want the Manor area situated, it would be most convenient for me to have it closer to Jistille. We will need to forge a path to get from the Manor to the Jistille Estates for many reasons. And yes, Bob, can I get a quick map - just Dragon Fen in center and then what is N,S,E,W of that?

So for next building adventure, correct me if Im wrong, but well not only be working on the Manor and Thieves Guild, but buildings for:

  • More farms
  • track through Valoris Wood, 20 feet wide and 4 miles long, will cost roughly 50K
  • Shi/Kel: Tree houses and shrine to Solonor
  • Hugh/Neith/Mercy
  • Hoffman/Miranda/Carpentry Shop
  • Foto/Smithy
  • Skarphedrin
  • 13,000 for Branwyn's Library to catch up on the accounting for that

1/19 Carissa

In addition to training, please list anything else your character did while in Loosend, such as...

  • Supplies or items bought?
  • Any letters or packages sent?
  • Anything else of importance?

As of right now, these are what items I know we were getting or debating on getting:

  • Blank books for Marisu (any specific amount or just an armful?) - if she is copying all 3 spell books in their entirety she needs 3 spell books at 5,000 gp each - paid for them
  • Potion of Health (needs agreement as we have no cure for poison at the moment, and Shi cannot make any until she has an alter plus however many weeks; do we want some health potion as backup as it could be months otherwise?) - Can we buy in Loosend? Is 500 gp right? BOB - Yes you can get one from the Kayugan church there in Loosend for 500 GP because you did a lot of training there in the Church and their properties - paid for them
  • Art supplies for Shi (personal items can be bought from her small gold stash: cost?)
    • Plus some wax, resin, sulfur, tinder box, granite, incense, charcoal, and clay (half those can be considered art supplies).
  • Throwing daggers and darts for Thistle (what's a normal amount of each to carry? gold from Shi or party?) - party usually takes care of weapon stuff. Others might have an opinion but I would think 5 of each. Not sure of costs
  • Branwyn needs a new spell book - 100 pp - 5000 gp & new spell book for Miranda - paid for them
  • New arrows for Shi depending on if new spells (two each of silver and sheaf)

As of letters and gifts, these are ones I know or wonder if we need to consider:

  • Shi is sending another letter and gifts home (to be written), but by normal means this time (aka no birds).
  • Do we need to catch up with Sam? Send him a normal letter? Maybe normal letter and bird as he knows to look for bird letters?
  • ?????

1/19 John

I am in the process of Miranda writing a letter to Qui' church and the Air Ship he was on to keep relations with both.

I mentioned I want to get new axes and carpenter tools that should be included in construction along with blacksmithing tools (Axes sold separately

(Later same day)

Working on site, it occurs to me Hoffman could use a Composite bow suitable for his Strength so he does more damage I mentioned in the game chat by myself that I already had trained for club and maybe I could spend that on punching

1/22/19 John

I am not sure if we will be able to role play or pay to use someone else's spell book. There are some spells I want that are listed on other players spell book (Marco's for one) that says it is in the library. I also would like a traveling spell book for Miranda, but that depends somewhat on if/how much she needs to spend on research.

Current wish list in order: Enlarge/Reduce, Lighting Bolt, Wizard Lock, Calm (pretty sure that is what it is call but only in Spell Compendium as far as I know) and Lance of Disruption

After Training is completed

Proposals for:

  • Dragon Fen Manor
    • 1 Grand Stone building for the manor house
      • 45' tall, three internal levels. The building is usually 80' long by 40' wide, giving each floor 3,200 square feet of surface area.
      • stone floor on first level, large open space for the Hall two stories tall, wooden floors and roof, 500 linear feet of interior walls
    • 1 Large Wooden building for the barn/work out area
      • 60x30 building, 1,800 square feet, large open space inside
    • 1 Medium Stone building for the laboratory
      • 40x20 building, 800 square feet, open space inside
    • 1 Medium Square tower for the apprentices
      • 40x40 building, 30 foot tall, 2 levels, 1,600 square feet of interior space each floor
    • 3,200 cubic feet of cellars/tunnels
    • 500,000 cubic feet of Motte {500 feet by 500 feet by 10 foot high}
    • 2,000 linear feet of Moat {10 foot wide by 5 foot deep}, stocked with otters
    • 1 Drawbridge, 20 foot wide by 20 foot long
    All at 10% extra for very high quality
Total cost after modifications: 99,920 GP
Total weeks to build: 16,380 weeks
  • Track through Valoris Wood
    • Total cost: 50,000 GP
    • Total weeks to build: 7,815
  • Build for additional farmers for Ilero's Scouting Guild plus additional non-farmers
    • Duplicate what was built during previous building session
    • Only duplicate farm houses, rest of the buildings are changed to other needs like a leather worker, the Church sized building could be housing for the Elves in the Valoris Wood, the Large Wooden buildings can be used for Hugh and family, Hoffman and family, jewelry store for Foto, etc.
    • This gives a total non-farmer population of 72 people for Dragon Fen Estates
      • 24 in the Adventuring group currently
      • 24 potential for Ilero's Scouting Guild
      • That leaves 24 various people around the Estate (see Population Notes above for potential residents)
    • Total cost: 15,724 GP

Sub-Total of Costs: 166,000 GP'

  • Ilero's Scouting Guild
    • TMO will need to fill in what he wants to build
    • Ilero's ideal tower was laid out in Discord:

Here's my ideal tower:

  • Motte base, 80x80 square 10 foot high
  • Large tower, rough Stone, 60x60 two stories 30 foot tall, exterior 70x70, 3,600 square feet of interior space each floor
  • Medium tower, regular Stone, 40x40 two stories 30 foot tall, 1,600 square feet of interior space each floor
  • Small tower, smooth Stone, 30x30 two stories 30 foot tall, 900 square feet of interior space each floor
    • 82 wall sections for flooring and roof, 100 more wall sections for interior walls and stair cases
  • Lighthouse beacon on roof of tower, 100 feet high in total to the mirror

1/23 Lisa

How about we drop building a road? I had no idea how expensive that was. That would drop 50K off costs

BOB: I disagree with dropping the track. Yes it is expensive but without it the trip to and from Jistille will go from 4 miles to 30 or more. When ever you went to Skull Church previously you had to go around Valoris Wood even though it was only a few miles away from Jistille. You will want multiple ways in and out of Dragon Fen and until the decade long process of building a canal deep into the Estate and out into the deeper swamps is completed the track through is the next best thing. Plus you will want to build a track out towards Red Fern Lake too eventually from the western portion of the Estate. Also it is a track, not a road. If you want to build a paved road to someplace I can work up those numbers for you.......

1-24 BOB

Thank you to TMO for those stats for the tower. Did you want an additional large stone building for the rest of the guild? A medium wooden building tohouse gear and skiffs?

  • 1 Medium Stone building for the Guild House next to the lighthouse
    • 40x20 building, 800 square feet, wooden floor and roof, plus 10 wall sections for 100 feet of interior walls
  • 1 Medium wooden building for a storage for the Guild, no floor, thatch roof
    • 40x20 building, 800 square feet, plus 10 wall sections for 100 feet of interior walls

OR anything that springs to mind for you that you might want or need. Build more than you need to start so you do not need to add to it more in the future.

TMO: I was kinda thinking the interior of the tower would be enough space for the Guild, but if you think we need more I'm okay with another building. The fun part is that, once complete, there will be no doors or stairs into the motte at the base. You gotta climb up that first bit to get in. ;) Granted, there will be a cargo lift that can be operated from the top for supplies and non-climbers to get inside, and ladders can be dropped over the side as well.

1-26 BOB

So the Manor House as detailed above, a 4 mile track through Valoris Wood, Ilero's Scouting guild with 100 foot tall light house, and duplicating the farm houses, barns and additional buildings from the first round.

  • Total cost in GP: 220,000
  • Total weeks to build: 29,361

This includes the production modifiers to the above rough numbers. I forgot to include the Track in the totals I mentioned previously.

You still have several buildings to re-designate from Town Hall to Hoffman family Residence for example. Picking other villages to place them in, particularly the church for Miranda. Most important you need names. You have "village #4" from the first round of building that never got a name, plus you are building 4 more with this round. I can name them if everyone else has exhausted all their ideas. But you had lots of flower names for kids, you can put those to good use.

1/26 John

Is Westgate to obvious of a name? I don't remember any discussion of a church for Miranda and while there is still some role playing left for the wedding that may mention it, I have no plans for a church My original plan was for a carpentry shop and blacksmith shop with residence in the main settlement, I am not sure how or where they are in the current plan.

1-27 BOB

John, Miranda needs at least a shrine, something for her Goddess. That would be normal in any circumstance. Then you have at least two other churches being built in Dragon Fen. Plus someone has already come to ask questions about Miranda and if she is true to her faith.

You do not need a huge grand church, you can pick one of the misc buildings that are on the list being built. Miranda will want a place to pray and celebrate. In one of the new villages, with a farmer who brings some root stock from the Orchard House in Jistille perhaps.

Second Building Phase

  • 52 medium wooden buildings to house 315 farmers, each with wood floors and a wooden roof, with basic furnishings
  • 52 large wooden buildings as barns, one per household, each with wood floors and a wood roof, open empty space for storing
  • Dragon Fen Manor House
  • Ilero's Scout Guild
  • 1 Large wooden building for a Blacksmith, with a wood floor and wood roof
    • In the small hamlet in front of Dragon Fen Manor
  • 1 Large wooden building for a Hugh, Neith and Mercy, with a wood floor and wood roof
    • 60x30 building, 1,800 square feet plus 24 wall sections for the floor and roof, plus 10 wall sections for 100 feet of interior walls
  • 1 Grand wooden building for an Hoffman and Miranda on the first floor, wood floors and roof, basic furnishings throughout
    • 3 stories tall, 45 foot tall, 80x40 for each floor, total of 9,600 square feet, 86 wall sections for wood floors and roof
    • cellar, 20x30x10, 6 tunnel sections (In Travelers Way)
  • 1 Medium wooden building for a Shrine to Idun wood floor and roof
    • 40x20 building, 800 square feet, plus 11 wall sections for the floor and roof (In Travelers way)
  • 1 Large wooden building for a Jewelry Shop and Residence for Foto, with a wood floor and wood roof
    • 60x30 building, 1,800 square feet plus 24 wall sections for the floor and roof, plus 10 wall sections for 100 feet of interior walls
  • 1 Grand wooden building for a Shi and Kel, wood floors and roof,
    • total of 9,600 square feet, including a Shrine to Solonor, 86 wall sections for wood floors, roof and stair cases inside of Valoris Wood
  • 1 Large wooden building for a ???, with a wood floor and wood roof
    • 60x30 building, 1,800 square feet plus 24 wall sections for the floor and roof, large open space inside
  • 1 Great wooden building for a ???, wood floors and a roof
    • 2 stories tall, 30 foot tall, 60x30 for each floor, total of 3,600 square feet, 24 wall sections for wood floors and roof, 30 wall sections for 300 feet of interior walls
  • 1 Medium wooden building for a ???, no floor and thatch roof
    • 40x20 building, 800 square feet, plus 11 wall sections for the floor and roof

Depending on what Bran's opinions are, I would still like to have Hugh/Neiths/Mercy's building to be near to the main estate manor house. If not that's fine. But, the location is key for two reasons. First, Hugh is loyal to branwyn and wants to be close by for emergencies and to rouse local security forces to respond quickly to the estate in an emergency scenario. He's only gotten more paranoid with her kid being born. Second, Neith will want to be close by because she considers herself a steward/administrator to assist Bran with anything she is too busy to handle. This wont be so much a residence but a Administration building with an attached living suite. It will be designed to have servants, working professionals, onsite security forces, etc coming and going to and from the estate and administration building. In fact, in addition to the main estate itself having a contingent of guards (eventually), this building might house one or two at any given time as well. More for reinforcements. Again, for me, I'm not really interested in my own little "Turf" in the estate. Hugh and Neith are prepping for the long haul and this building will be one of the areas where city proposals, engineer vetting, canalworks contracting, merchant guild deals, and all the other stuff that comes with running a successful estate comes. I have no desire to build anything other than the Estate of Dragon's Fen itself. So, all i'm really asking for it this building if no one would care to deny it. Also, bob, still working on Church/Hospital flow chart. Haven't forgotten, just had some spare time.

- Michael

1-28 BOB

Michael, you can have your house anywhere you wish, looks like your choices are Otterville where the new Kayugan church is, or the small hamlet in front of Dragon Fen Manor (which does not have a separate name yet). Your input on various other people wanted is important though. You said Sheriff before so we built a Sheriff's office and residence. Is that one person? Two? We need to start working out the who lives where and how many for the general population of Dragon Fen. Mario and Spring will work with you on the Church & Hospital staff.

From the looks of this Dragon Fen will have five key points of interest. The Dragon Fen Manor as Branwyn's seat of power. Ilero's Scouting Guild, Lighthouse, Foriso Town. Otterville with a rare hospital that will attract attention. The new Valoris Fenorian Solonor for Elven visitors. And Hoffman's new Travelers Way.

Not a bad start for an Estate at all.

1-28 Michael

Well unless someone stops me, Hugh will build the administration building in the yet, unnamed town that is next to the Manor. By necessity. Eventaully, that hamlet will be a very close fortress and support center for all operations in the Dragons Fen overall, a support system if you were for all the tasks that cannot be handled by the other portions alone. I'm all for naming the Hamlet "Dragons Maw." Because when the fortress is eventually complete, opposing forces will have to face the maw of the dragon before marching on to Brans estate proper. In a few hundred years, I expect it to become a mighty citadel that will awe the general populace and bring despair to those who oppose. Maybe Lisa can have a pet dragon at the top ... :) Anyways, regardless, that is where the Admin building and steward house will go. Hugh and Neith and Mercy will live there full time to maintain close proximity to the Lady of the land.

1/29 Carissa

Probably could be combined somewhere else, but to be added to total cost and built at (and near) the Solonor Shrine:

Small Basin/Font: 8 vials at 1d6x50+1,000gp+350 gp
(can downgrade if needed to just 6 vials - don't think it really needs to be bigger than this).

Basic Lab: 1,000-6,000 (1d6 x 1000) gp
(again, trying for low cost but effective - mainly to make health potions and such).
(and near it, but not too near in case of fire, although hopefully less of a hazard for priests...).

Also updated one or two things above in the items list above. Since I'll likely be late on Friday, let me know if there is anything definite I need by then in terms of building.


So I am going to be working on Brother Foto's building and as he is not a Jeweler, I was going to add a NPC Gnome Jeweler, unless anyone objects. I am not sure where to put the building but it is the kind of building that probably should be in Dragon Fen's hamlet unless we have a second more established hamlet near the scouting guild.

John, the only reason it was designated a Jewelry shop was because of Foto being a gnome. No need to bring in another gnome to do that. Foto can have a blacksmith shop, or what ever you wish. The idea is that the buildings are built so that we could be flexible in what/who they were assigned to.

2/3 John

So I want Brother Foto to be in village 4. I still want another gnome to move in, currently thinking his sister. But I love my kids ideas for the town name. Who like Mist Garden?

2/3 Carissa

Village #4 is Qui Fen. Do you mean rename it? Mist Garden is nice (and very gnomish), but I will fully admit, if we're going to rename a town, I'm not a huge fan of Egglett (sorry!!).

2/4 John

Sorry, looking at old map. Not looking to change any names. Just looked like southwest corner town needed name.

2-4 BOB

Yes to changing names as the group wants to.

I only committed to: Dragon Fen; Foriso Town, Qui Fen, and Otterville. John named Travelers Way which I am fine with and Cypress Borough works well.

Swapping out Mist Garden for Egglett works for me if that is what everyone wants. I am not fond of Dragon Maw as a name for the hamlet in front of the Manor. I know Michael's reasoning but I think The Maw would be more appropriate a name for a massive gatehouse built into a new set of walls surrounding the central manor complex.

Also to the population chart thank you.

I will leave it up to individual players to choose where they are living on a regular basis. My thoughts are that Wu Sen and Skarphedin are both in the boarding house at the hamlet next to the Manor. Unless Lisa would like Wu to stay with Indigo & Penelope at Orchard House. Johan would be at the Manor house as an apprentice of Branwyn, but Howard could be there or in the other mage tower in Jistille depending on Lisa's preferences. Marisu is up to TMO, I do not have a good understanding of how much longer he wants her to stay with the group. There are obvious adventures in helping her reestablish her standing in her own Estate. But there are also adventures in her deciding to hand over the lands to some other distant relative and working to rebuild trust in the Doeskin name on her own adventuring.

TMO: Sorry, I thought I'd been clear about it - Marisu's top priority is salvaging her Estate. She has a duty to her people living there, no clue what role, if any, her other relatives (we don't even know who they are yet ;) ) had in the revolt and if she can trust them, and her little sister is still missing. The only reason she went to this wedding is because she was directly ordered to. She will take Anastasia as soon as possible and go home, unless her presence is needed for a bit here in the Fen. Shurkural would be a welcome addition, but she understands that she belongs to the DS and Ilero first and that that will take priority. Anyone else who wants to accompany her is also more than welcome.

Carissa: Marisu was counted in building weeks/manpower so she's in the area for that long at least. I've left her unsorted, otherwise, as she'll likely leave right after (in my mind).

List of potential additional residents to consider recruiting and or uses for the three currently un-specified buildings: Warehouse for dry goods, stone mason, leather worker, community storage in one of the small hamlets, apothecary, dress maker, carpenter, hunt/trapper, shepherd, wool merchant, fortune teller, tourist trap for visitors to Estate, the possibilities are endless

2/9 John

Any thoughts on Lairus or Lairton for the main town?

Otterville is the main, large town in the Estate. All the population centers have names now. It is just a name rather than Dragon Maw for the small hamlet in front of Dragon Fen Manor.

Final Wrap Up

So we have one final question to be able to wrap this all up.

Do we click off time for everyone to train and be fully, completely done? Or do we only click off some time to let some training happen and the rest catch up as they can? off training during the first part of the next story arc?? Or just start the next arc now and let everyone train on the way?

Characters that need training:

  • Kel
  • Mara
  • Shi
  • Thistle
  • Miranda
  • Howard
  • Johan
  • Jon the sailor - whoops. He's my responsibility now, isn't he? I've managed to completely overlook him amongst the other Guild work I've been doing. - TMO
    -> Jon is leveled up to level 4 now. He bought Alertness & Two-Weapon style, gained 5hp (6-1), and 30 pts of thief skills.
  • Penelope

My suggestion is to click off 14 weeks, which allows for training in two things (1 NWP, 1 WP, 1 Spell level, etc) and anyone who has more training than that will be continuing after the rest of the group has continued onto the next adventure.

Mario: I agree, let's click off 14 weeks for training, then proceed w the next adventure.
TMO: I've no objection to clicking off time.

BOB - We didn't calculate training costs for this last round.

We need to pay for:

Howard: Thaumaturgy nwp - Loosend
Johan: 3rd level spell training - Loosend
Miranda: 4th level spell training - Loosend, learn one spell from our Library (signature spell)
Anyone else doing outside training work?
Marisu and her NWP from her last level up.
Shi: 5th level spell training
Thistle: 4 levels of thief training and 2 NWP (taught by others or paid for? Reading/Writing and Rope Use)
Mara: 2 NWP (Ceremony and Calligraphy)
Kel: Thief Skills (30 points worth)

04/07/2019 John

Not sure if this it the right place, but the rules describe at what age a child counts as a worker, but not clear on when they are considered a person to be fed, which I suspect is earlier, if not instant. I feel we need to confirm and update the size of the "DragonSlayers"

4-8 BOB

Children count as a person to be fed when they become a worker. Younger than that they tend to die off to fast to worry about keeping track of. Harsh Realities.
-- They die even faster when you don't feed them. - TMO